The problem I had with all of the people saying “this was judgment from God” was that it all took place after the fact. Claiming responsibility after an event is easy � any nutcase can do that. My observation from the Old Testament is that God wanted it to be very clear when he was responsible for things, so he sent prophets in advance to give details on exactly what God was going to do to various nations and cities just so that there would be no ambiguity when it happened. The prophecies would contain details which might not make sense in advance; but after the events took place made it clear that yes, this was the fulfillment of prophecy.

So after Northridge, after 9/11, after Katrina, I kept waiting for someone to dig out a prophecy that had been given prior to those events which was more than a generic “I’m going to judge this nation” statement (which could be used to explain anything). I was hoping to hear a prophecy given before Northridge that would say something like “I’m going to shake the city that leads the people into promiscuity, that calls them to lust after each other. I will cause it to fall to the ground in rubble”; but if such a word existed, I never heard it.

Now perhaps the reason for that is that Christianity doesn’t know how to handle the gift of prophesy. We either say it doesn’t exist or accept anything that people claim is spoken in God’s name. We’ve lost the balance point between those extremes. Perhaps God did try and tell the world what He was about to do; but the Church buried it or forgot it, and so lost an opportunity for a powerful testimony to the world.

Therefore, when I am talking about “we,” I’m talking about we Christians or the Church. The specifier here is American.

In this particular post, when I talk of godly repentance, I mean for all Americans, Church and unbelievers alike. I am talking to the Church, but I am including unbelievers in that need for repentance. They need to get the message as much as we Christians do.

But most of the time I am speaking of Christians when I say “we.”

Okay, Sam. I can’t speak on behalf of Dan Edelen, but I can speak for myself. Just to make it absolutely sure there is no possibility of confusion here, I will clarify things to the best of my ability:

When I speak of “We” I exclusively meant “Us Xtians, Who Are Washed In The Blood Of the Lamb, Born Again By The Spirit of The Living God”. I had absolutely no one else in mind. I intended to refer to no one else. Being American, as such, had completely nothing to do with it. It never, ever entered my mind. It was the farthest thing in world.

Now I truely hope that I have made myself absolutely clear about this.

Sam: It’s unclear to me why I should assume that there is something for us to discern here.

As far as seeing if there were anything to discern, well, I am sorry but I cannot help you on this one. You’ll have to begin the same way that all have to begin: Understanding that the “Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom”, and that we have to come to Christ, God’s one and only Savior, just as a little child, which means with complete trust, and laying aside all our selfish ego and having things our way.

Now, I’m I claiming remarkable discernment above anyone else? No. But I do know that our lives are but a breath, and that God does all things in righteousness and faithfulness. I also remember that in times past, God sometimes does reveal what he is doing to his prophets and seers. A good example would be Agabus, in the New Testament Book of Acts, who predicted a famine that would hit the entire Roman Empire. It is recorded that in response to this prophecy, the church back then acted to prepare for what was coming.

But I suspect that even if there were a modern day prophet like Agabus, I doubt that anyone would listen to him.

“When did I ever suggest they were one and the same?”

The suggestion comes from the difficulty I have in always knowing which “we” you and Dan are talking about — we Americans or we Christians?

What do “we” have going? you ask. But I am having trouble understanding how what “we” have going demonstrates that we’re not ready for whatever is you think we should be ready for. It’s unclear to me why I should assume that there is something for us to discern here. There is a difference in what we mean by “discern,” depending on whether we’re talking about ungodly Americans or wayward Christians, is there not? The same seems to me to apply to the word “repent.” The water is muddy here, and I assume Dan meant it otherwise

If we — the Church — have been charged with lack of discernment, lack of vision, lack preparation, lack of readiness, being significantly unteachable, and so on, then this merits further thought on my part to be sure. Just elsewhere in my case, as I mentioned earlier, out of respect for Dan.

Thanks,

Sam

I think your problem about why Christians are not talking about judgment with regard to the Katrina is actually answered in one of your earlier posts about changing methodology.

God’s judgment is real, but talking about it with regard to “day-to-day” disasters is no longer, to use your terms, effective methodology.

Just as we no longer have circuit riders, we also no longer try to terrify people, unbelievers, into the Kingdom of God.

Do we need more emphasis on “sin, judgment, and righteous” among believers? Yes, and that should be done in church, in the context of the gathering of believers. Actually coming to a conviction on those things is a function of the Holy Spirit.