Comments on: In the Trenches of the Worship Wars http://ceruleansanctum.com/2005/10/in-trenches-of-worship-wars.html Looking for the 1st century Church in 21st century America Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:01:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Chey http://ceruleansanctum.com/2005/10/in-trenches-of-worship-wars.html#comment-6459 Chey Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:35:34 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=145#comment-6459 There is nothing wrong with being seen worshipping God as long as you aren't trying to gain notice of yourself. David and SOlomon both stood on platforms as I said earlier so that people could SEE them worship God and know how to do it. That is what a worship leader is.. they worship God and people see, hear and follow along. If you are a true worship leader and not just a musician, you should be filled with praise and adoration of the Lord, be able to sing to the Lord and show your heart of worship to Him and this will draw people into worshipping Him when they are inspired by someone else's heart. to say a worship leader should be invisible is kind of an oxymoron, how can you lead when you can't be seen? I do agree services should be God led and not program led. And I don't think we should be seeker churches either. People will come worship with you when they truly find God and then see your heart of worship. In the new testament the church grew in numbers because of those being saved by the disciples going out and preaching the gospel to the lost it had nothing to do with the worship inside the buildings. church growth should mostly be about growing the fruit inside a person's heart as well.. but that's another issue.. in christ There is nothing wrong with being seen worshipping God as long as you aren’t trying to gain notice of yourself.
David and SOlomon both stood on platforms as I said earlier so that people could SEE them worship God and know how to do it.
That is what a worship leader is..
they worship God and people see, hear and follow along.
If you are a true worship leader and not just a musician, you should be filled with praise and adoration of the Lord, be able to sing to the Lord and show your heart of worship to Him and this will draw people into worshipping Him when they are inspired by someone else’s heart.
to say a worship leader should be invisible is kind of an oxymoron, how can you lead when you can’t be seen?
I do agree services should be God led and not program led.
And I don’t think we should be seeker churches either.
People will come worship with you when they truly find God and then see your heart of worship.
In the new testament the church grew in numbers because of those being saved by the disciples going out and preaching the gospel to the lost it had nothing to do with the worship inside the buildings.
church growth should mostly be about growing the fruit inside a person’s heart as well..
but that’s another issue..

in christ

]]> By: Chey http://ceruleansanctum.com/2005/10/in-trenches-of-worship-wars.html#comment-6458 Chey Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:17:19 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=145#comment-6458 the church I am now attending only uses instruments like guitars etc in the youth band worship. In the main sanctuary there is an organ, keyboards and drums.. thats it. the drummer is set in a pit off to the side and the organ is against the wall. the keyboardist "aka" worship pastor sits to the side of the choir loft and leads worship there and the choir leads worship from center stage.. They used to have a couple doing the actual lead singing...the woman was backup in the choir and the man stood out front.. and we sing a few choruses and adlibs and that was it. the couple left and now it's the music minister singing and I might add doing a good job of worship leading, right from his keyboard. the choir lifts their hands and gets it going and he has a heart of worship enough to carry it all for us. I think it's fine the way it is..hardly any musicians, and a true heart of worship. imo, I think a guitarist center stage with a mic would be enough if his heart showed through as well as a gift of singing and writing. God bless the church I am now attending only uses instruments like guitars etc in the youth band worship.
In the main sanctuary there is an organ, keyboards and drums..
thats it.
the drummer is set in a pit off to the side and the organ is against the wall. the keyboardist “aka” worship pastor sits to the side of the choir loft and leads worship there and the choir leads worship from center stage..
They used to have a couple doing the actual lead singing…the woman was backup in the choir and the man stood out front..
and we sing a few choruses and adlibs and that was it.
the couple left and now it’s the music minister singing and I might add doing a good job of worship leading, right from his keyboard.
the choir lifts their hands and gets it going and he has a heart of worship enough to carry it all for us.
I think it’s fine the way it is..hardly any musicians, and a true heart of worship.
imo, I think a guitarist center stage with a mic would be enough if his heart showed through as well as a gift of singing and writing.

God bless

]]> By: Chey http://ceruleansanctum.com/2005/10/in-trenches-of-worship-wars.html#comment-6456 Chey Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:09:49 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=145#comment-6456 what I don't understand is how hard is it to sing some choruses written by someone who loves God and is only expressing that love? Why are the older people so stuck on the hymns in their religiousity (cause that's what it is...it is a religious spirit that says that hymns are how we sing to God..and also realize hymns sing more about God than to Him..how intimate is that? it isn't!) I know that these older people also aren't raising or lifting their "holy hands" to the Lord as scripture says we should. Worship is about our creator not about the people so why should we cater to any gender, age group or race? we shouldn't. we aren't in worship to attract visitors, guests or even sinners.. we are there to pay attention to God, to have intimacy with our creator... And while I feel that the mood and music or whatever other worship genre is used should also be a heart "song" for those worshipping the Lord the choruses sung usually or normally are ones that are touching and should reflect all of our hearts towards God.. it's all praise, it's all worship...it all should be intimate. and also we must understand that the act of worship doesn't just include the music section but the response to His word, our giving, our acts of fellowship, our church work, our time, our marriages, our family lives etc etc etc.. all of this is part of how we worship God. BTW this is to address the issue of paid worship leaders being those who are degreed. To say that this is a gift God gave you cannot always be true. I can pay for a degree in music without having an ounce of musical giftings or talent in me. Where worship leading comes from isn't in the ability but in the desire to worship God, having an ear to carry a tune and a pleasant voice (not for God but that part is so people won't be distracted and leave the building) and the also have the ability to get involved in worship themselves as an example to those around them just like David and Solomon who stood on platforms to show the people how to worship God. Instead of musicians leading worship we need to have worshippers who just happen to be musicians whether it's playing or singing. And don't drag people to the altar by yelliing "come on people, worship God" show us by example HOW to worship..talk to God, touch HIS heart, love on Him and they will follow. Some of us with that heart of worship don't have degrees, don't have the ability to read music but we have hearts of worship and voices that might touch others and lead them into that place at God's feet... should we miss out on being able to lead worship with our own giftings that God has given us just because we don't have a professional degree? In Christ Chey what I don’t understand is how hard is it to sing some choruses written by someone who loves God and is only expressing that love?
Why are the older people so stuck on the hymns in their religiousity (cause that’s what it is…it is a religious spirit that says that hymns are how we sing to God..and also realize hymns sing more about God than to Him..how intimate is that? it isn’t!)
I know that these older people also aren’t raising or lifting their “holy hands” to the Lord as scripture says we should.
Worship is about our creator not about the people so why should we cater to any gender, age group or race? we shouldn’t.
we aren’t in worship to attract visitors, guests or even sinners..
we are there to pay attention to God, to have intimacy with our creator…
And while I feel that the mood and music or whatever other worship genre is used should also be a heart “song” for those worshipping the Lord the choruses sung usually or normally are ones that are touching and should reflect all of our hearts towards God.. it’s all praise, it’s all worship…it all should be intimate.
and also we must understand that the act of worship doesn’t just include the music section but the response to His word, our giving, our acts of fellowship, our church work, our time, our marriages, our family lives etc etc etc..
all of this is part of how we worship God.
BTW this is to address the issue of paid worship leaders being those who are degreed.
To say that this is a gift God gave you cannot always be true.
I can pay for a degree in music without having an ounce of musical giftings or talent in me.
Where worship leading comes from isn’t in the ability but in the desire to worship God, having an ear to carry a tune and a pleasant voice (not for God but that part is so people won’t be distracted and leave the building) and the also have the ability to get involved in worship themselves as an example to those around them just like David and Solomon who stood on platforms to show the people how to worship God.
Instead of musicians leading worship we need to have worshippers who just happen to be musicians whether it’s playing or singing.
And don’t drag people to the altar by yelliing “come on people, worship God” show us by example HOW to worship..talk to God, touch HIS heart, love on Him and they will follow.
Some of us with that heart of worship don’t have degrees, don’t have the ability to read music but we have hearts of worship and voices that might touch others and lead them into that place at God’s feet… should we miss out on being able to lead worship with our own giftings that God has given us just because we don’t have a professional degree?

In Christ
Chey

]]> By: Anonymous http://ceruleansanctum.com/2005/10/in-trenches-of-worship-wars.html#comment-1067 Anonymous Thu, 03 Nov 2005 05:02:00 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=145#comment-1067 Could it be that along with refusing to pay the musical experts, the churches refused to continue <I>treating</I> them like experts? Maybe in a burst of liturgical democracy and innovation, the churches decided that one person's music was as good as another's. Perhaps churches that would not say "do your own thing" about doctrine have definitely said that about music. I had the good fortune to visit a tiny (Eastern) Orthodox church recently. The unaccompanied (and I'm sure unpaid) choir sang continuously the entire hour and a half of the services, in English. There were about six people in the choir and perhaps ten additional congregants. It was the most beautiful music I have heard, and it made me feel more in tune with God than at any other service I've attended. The liturgy that was sung was written many hundreds of years ago, almost every bit of it taken from scripture. It is still not clear to me where my church home should be. If I were going to select based only on which services made me feel the most humble and worshipful, it would be the Orthodox. I guess my point is to wonder whether the real problem isn't that the churches Dan is writing about are too cheap. Perhaps they are too innovative. Popeye. Could it be that along with refusing to pay the musical experts, the churches refused to continue treating them like experts? Maybe in a burst of liturgical democracy and innovation, the churches decided that one person’s music was as good as another’s. Perhaps churches that would not say “do your own thing” about doctrine have definitely said that about music.

I had the good fortune to visit a tiny (Eastern) Orthodox church recently. The unaccompanied (and I’m sure unpaid) choir sang continuously the entire hour and a half of the services, in English. There were about six people in the choir and perhaps ten additional congregants. It was the most beautiful music I have heard, and it made me feel more in tune with God than at any other service I’ve attended. The liturgy that was sung was written many hundreds of years ago, almost every bit of it taken from scripture.

It is still not clear to me where my church home should be. If I were going to select based only on which services made me feel the most humble and worshipful, it would be the Orthodox.

I guess my point is to wonder whether the real problem isn’t that the churches Dan is writing about are too cheap. Perhaps they are too innovative.

Popeye.

]]> By: James Burns http://ceruleansanctum.com/2005/10/in-trenches-of-worship-wars.html#comment-1066 James Burns Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:23:00 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=145#comment-1066 As a worship leader I can speak to this issue. When I lead worship I play my acoustic or electric guitar, granted I come from a hard rock background but I have over the years forced myself to be more diverse in the styles of music I play. I have had the opportunity to participate in both kinds of worship services, ones where the focus was on God, and ones filled with over egoed musicians who cared more about themselves being noticed than God. I will stand with a post I made on my blog called "The Invisable Worship Leader". You can find that at http://www.revivedministries.org. The basic idea is that anything, the lead worshiper, drama, powerpoint, music anything that distracts from the worship of God by definition becomes Idolitry. When we as worshipers or as a church put anything above God that thing becomes an idol. I don't believe that the style of worship is the key issue, the issue is what are we as worshipers and we as the body of Christ more interested in? Are we motivated to come and worship God because we love Him, or because we are going to here good music or see great drama? I think we should call Sunday morning a worship celebration, not a worship service. In todays culture we seek to be served, we expect good service at a resturant, we expect good customer service from companies etc. The whole thing is based on ME MYSELF AND I. Worship is our service to God, I believe much of the worship wars would subside if we would approach it in that manner and not saying what am I going to get out of this. As a worship leader I can speak to this issue. When I lead worship I play my acoustic or electric guitar, granted I come from a hard rock background but I have over the years forced myself to be more diverse in the styles of music I play.

I have had the opportunity to participate in both kinds of worship services, ones where the focus was on God, and ones filled with over egoed musicians who cared more about themselves being noticed than God. I will stand with a post I made on my blog called “The Invisable Worship Leader”. You can find that at http://www.revivedministries.org.

The basic idea is that anything, the lead worshiper, drama, powerpoint, music anything that distracts from the worship of God by definition becomes Idolitry. When we as worshipers or as a church put anything above God that thing becomes an idol.

I don’t believe that the style of worship is the key issue, the issue is what are we as worshipers and we as the body of Christ more interested in? Are we motivated to come and worship God because we love Him, or because we are going to here good music or see great drama?

I think we should call Sunday morning a worship celebration, not a worship service. In todays culture we seek to be served, we expect good service at a resturant, we expect good customer service from companies etc. The whole thing is based on ME MYSELF AND I.

Worship is our service to God, I believe much of the worship wars would subside if we would approach it in that manner and not saying what am I going to get out of this.

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