Comments on: Suffer Little Children… http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html Looking for the 1st century Church in 21st century America Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:49:25 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 By: dan mcgowan http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4139 dan mcgowan Sun, 25 Jun 2006 04:34:28 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4139 I understand the idea of needing to see some proof of conversion. At the same time, do we REALLY NEED to SEE that proof? I mean, it's not really up to us, is it? Becoming a follower of Christ is between the person and their Lord. My father was very abusive, both emotionally and physically, to me, my sister and my mother, as I was growing up. He was a very angry, violent man who was bitter and selfish. Obviously, we grew apart (that is an understatement!) We were civil with each other - but it was VERY superficial, at best. About 6 years ago, he had some major medical issues. I went to see him (he lives several states away) and made the decision on the plane that I was going to forgive him and tell him I loved him. Which is what I did. And it was very, very, very difficult to do. But I did it. During that trip, I also shared the gospel with him. He grew up Catholic and was "done" with God. I shared it anyway. And returned home. About 2 years ago, he was back in the hospital. I went to see him again. And, again, I shared the gospel. He told me that he had received Jesus into his heart. BOING!!! Huh? But, he said he had. He is still gruff, a bit prideful, stubborn, etc. AND he says he knows Jesus. Is his fruit revealing this new life in Christ? Not entirely. Neither does mine. (psst - neither does it for ANY of us if we honest.) But he SAYS he knows Jesus as his Lord. Who am I to judge that? Really, that's between him and God. I guess I'd rather err on the side of believing - rather than suspecting, if that makes sense... I understand the idea of needing to see some proof of conversion. At the same time, do we REALLY NEED to SEE that proof? I mean, it’s not really up to us, is it? Becoming a follower of Christ is between the person and their Lord.

My father was very abusive, both emotionally and physically, to me, my sister and my mother, as I was growing up. He was a very angry, violent man who was bitter and selfish. Obviously, we grew apart (that is an understatement!) We were civil with each other - but it was VERY superficial, at best.

About 6 years ago, he had some major medical issues. I went to see him (he lives several states away) and made the decision on the plane that I was going to forgive him and tell him I loved him. Which is what I did. And it was very, very, very difficult to do. But I did it. During that trip, I also shared the gospel with him. He grew up Catholic and was “done” with God. I shared it anyway. And returned home.

About 2 years ago, he was back in the hospital. I went to see him again. And, again, I shared the gospel. He told me that he had received Jesus into his heart. BOING!!! Huh? But, he said he had.

He is still gruff, a bit prideful, stubborn, etc. AND he says he knows Jesus. Is his fruit revealing this new life in Christ? Not entirely. Neither does mine. (psst - neither does it for ANY of us if we honest.) But he SAYS he knows Jesus as his Lord. Who am I to judge that? Really, that’s between him and God.

I guess I’d rather err on the side of believing - rather than suspecting, if that makes sense…

]]> By: Dan Edelen http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4138 Dan Edelen Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:53:07 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4138 Dan, I don't take anyone's word on salvation unless evidence exists for it. The leaders of the early church didn't take Paul's word on his conversion until they had some real evidence. Yes, I know he was a persecutor, but the fact remains. By their fruits you will know them. If we were all a bit more skeptical, maybe we wouldn't have so many cases of people "falling away" in time. We need to be as wise as snakes and as innocent as doves, even on this issue. I think that we can rejoice with that family, but the proof is always in the walking out of supposed belief. Dan,

I don’t take anyone’s word on salvation unless evidence exists for it. The leaders of the early church didn’t take Paul’s word on his conversion until they had some real evidence. Yes, I know he was a persecutor, but the fact remains. By their fruits you will know them.

If we were all a bit more skeptical, maybe we wouldn’t have so many cases of people “falling away” in time. We need to be as wise as snakes and as innocent as doves, even on this issue. I think that we can rejoice with that family, but the proof is always in the walking out of supposed belief.

]]> By: Dan Edelen http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4137 Dan Edelen Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:48:15 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4137 Mike, Moses knew what he was supposed to do, but he didn't do it. This kindled the wrath of God. If we know we are to be baptized and we don't do it, why should God treat us better than Moses? Once we know, we are without excuse. I try to stay away from the whole "jungle native/ desert islander" scenario. How one answers that depends greatly on whether one is a Calvinist, Arminian, or another viewpoint. All I know is that God wants the Gospel to go out to the jungle native or desert islander. That's where I stand on that issue. Mike,

Moses knew what he was supposed to do, but he didn’t do it. This kindled the wrath of God.

If we know we are to be baptized and we don’t do it, why should God treat us better than Moses? Once we know, we are without excuse.

I try to stay away from the whole “jungle native/ desert islander” scenario. How one answers that depends greatly on whether one is a Calvinist, Arminian, or another viewpoint. All I know is that God wants the Gospel to go out to the jungle native or desert islander. That’s where I stand on that issue.

]]> By: Francisco http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4136 Francisco Sat, 24 Jun 2006 17:20:53 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4136 Dan, I don't want to diminish the importance of second sources. Those are great. Now with the wide availability of Internet's resources we can find -at least for those old great Christians- first sources. Edwards in his own words say “On January 12, 1723, I made a solemn dedication of myself to God, and wrote it down; giving up myself, and all that I had, to God; to be for the future in no respect my own; to act as one that had no right to himself, in any respect. And solemnly vowed to take God for my whole portion and felicity, looking on nothing else as any part of my happiness, nor acting as it were; and his law for the constant rule of my obedience; engaging to fight with all my might against the world, the flesh, and the devil, to the end of my life. But I have reason to be infinitely humbled, when I consider how much I have failed of answering my obligation." http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/works1.i.i.html Now, considering that Edwards was born in 1703, that should mean that he was not converted at 3 if my math is right ;) Dan,
I don’t want to diminish the importance of second sources. Those are great. Now with the wide availability of Internet’s resources we can find -at least for those old great Christians- first sources. Edwards in his own words say
“On January 12, 1723, I made a solemn dedication of myself to God, and wrote it down; giving up myself, and all that I had, to God; to be for the future in no respect my own; to act as one that had no right to himself, in any respect. And solemnly vowed to take God for my whole portion and felicity, looking on nothing else as any part of my happiness, nor acting as it were; and his law for the constant rule of my obedience; engaging to fight with all my might against the world, the flesh, and the devil, to the end of my life. But I have reason to be infinitely humbled, when I consider how much I have failed of answering my obligation.” http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/works1.i.i.html

Now, considering that Edwards was born in 1703, that should mean that he was not converted at 3 if my math is right ;)

]]> By: Mike Oliver http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4135 Mike Oliver Sat, 24 Jun 2006 14:42:37 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/2006/06/suffer-little-children.html#comment-4135 Dan, Ex. 4:24-26 deals with the circumcision of Moses son. Is your point that God took very seriously Moses failure to circumsize his son? The thief on the cross had admitted to being a sinner, recognized Jesus innocence, lordship and coming kingdom and asked to be remembered. Apparently that was enough for him to be saved. Would a native in a jungle who prayed to his "Great Creator God" saying God I know you are there because I live in the midst of your creation and I know that I have done evil, please forgive me for the evil I have done, be saved? Dan,
Ex. 4:24-26 deals with the circumcision of Moses son. Is your point that God took very seriously Moses failure to circumsize his son?
The thief on the cross had admitted to being a sinner, recognized Jesus innocence, lordship and coming kingdom and asked to be remembered. Apparently that was enough for him to be saved.
Would a native in a jungle who prayed to his “Great Creator God” saying God I know you are there because I live in the midst of your creation and I know that I have done evil, please forgive me for the evil I have done, be saved?

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