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	<title>Comments on: Banking on God: Theology, Part 2</title>
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	<description>Looking for the 1st century Church in 21st century America</description>
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		<title>By: Banking on God: Series Compendium and Final Thoughts &#124; Cerulean Sanctum</title>
		<link>http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-theology-part-2.html#comment-36931</link>
		<dc:creator>Banking on God: Series Compendium and Final Thoughts &#124; Cerulean Sanctum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 04:03:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-theology-part-2.html#comment-36931</guid>
		<description>[...] Banking on God: Theology, Part 2 [...]</description>
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<p>[...] Banking on God: Theology, Part 2 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Block</title>
		<link>http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-theology-part-2.html#comment-36746</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Block</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-theology-part-2.html#comment-36746</guid>
		<description>My apologies, I got my commentaries mixed up. The one I read was The Bible Knowledge Commentary, edited by John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My apologies, I got my commentaries mixed up. The one I read was The Bible Knowledge Commentary, edited by John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Edelen</title>
		<link>http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-theology-part-2.html#comment-36725</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Edelen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-theology-part-2.html#comment-36725</guid>
		<description>Dave,

Here are the factors, as I see them, that color the outcome of whether someone is healed or not:

1. Carl Sagan once wrote a book called &lt;i&gt;The Demon-Haunted World&lt;/i&gt; wherein he debunked supernaturalistic answers to life&#039;s problems. That highly rational approach to life PLAGUES the Western world. We&#039;ve made it nigh unto impossible to move beyond our dependence on science to explain everything that happens. For that reason Westerners suffer from a scientific version of what we saw of the faithless denizens of Jesus&#039; hometown who said, &quot;Isn&#039;t that Jesus, the carpenter&#039;s son?&quot; And if that&#039;s how we think, the number of miracles we&#039;re going to see will, by nature of our unbelief, be diminished. I think that explains most of those cases where no healing comes. That is our fault. It is also the fault of the age. It&#039;s something all of us have been marinated in since day one, so it&#039;s remarkably hard to purge. It&#039;s also why the West is not seeing revival anymore, but the more &quot;demon-haunted&quot; East is.

2. James says, &quot;The prayer of Faith.&quot; What is faith? How is it practically expressed. As I&#039;ve noted in the series I&#039;m in, how many of us truly live by Give us this day our daily bread? If we&#039;re not used to living there, we won&#039;t see as many products of faith. We&#039;ll manufacturer most of our solutions out of the flesh.

3. &quot;On demand power&quot; is a tricky issue. I believe that God is coherent in Himself and in His word. If He says that He imbues His people with His power so that they can accomplish His will, then there is no reason to believe that the power is NOT &quot;on demand.&quot; As the Bible says, the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. When we see healings in the Bible, the one used for healing is surprised by the healing that operates through them. When Peter confronted the cripple at the gate and told the man he had no gold, but could instead give him something better, I don&#039;t think that Peter walked away from that healing saying, &quot;Wow! I can&#039;t believe that actually worked!&quot; Again, that&#039;s our problem. We don&#039;t understand what God has given us through His indwelling, so subsequently, we put no faith in its working. Jesus said that the one who speaks to the mountain and does not doubt will see it cast into the sea. That sounds like on-demand power to me.

4. Ours is not a culture that thinks faith first and everything else second. We always place faith second. &quot;Well, we&#039;ve tried everything else. I guess all we can do is pray!&quot; That&#039;s our thinking. That&#039;s not faith, though. The truly faithful place faith first and everything else second. Only that is real faith. That is why real faith in America is largely a vapor rather than a solid reality.

5. Does God use illness as a corrective or to show His glory? Yes, He does. But He also very clearly shows that sickness and disease are NOT part of His Kingdom. They are aberrant states of being. In nearly every case in the Bible, sickness is used to show how God overcomes it. Christ came to initiate a Kingdom that reduced (now) and eliminated (later) suffering, NOT to make peace with it. Just as God used pagan nations to correct a wayward Israel, he can use suffering to get us to wake up to our real condition. But again, as I read the Bible, suffering is to be overcome, not tolerated.

I&#039;ll leave with this highly informative passage:
&lt;blockquote&gt;And someone from the crowd answered him, &quot;Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.&quot; And he answered them, &quot;O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.&quot; And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. And Jesus asked his father, &quot;How long has this been happening to him?&quot; And he said, &quot;From childhood. And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.&quot; And Jesus said to him, &quot;&#039;If you can&#039;! All things are possible for one who believes.&quot; Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, &quot;I believe; help my unbelief!&quot; 
—Mark 9:17-24&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Jesus was amazed that the father of the boy tossed back the &quot;If you can&quot; comment. That was nothing but unbelief. Yet isn&#039;t that how so many of us live? Well, we can&#039;t live like that too much longer, especially if all of our man-made props start falling apart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>Here are the factors, as I see them, that color the outcome of whether someone is healed or not:</p>
<p>1. Carl Sagan once wrote a book called <i>The Demon-Haunted World</i> wherein he debunked supernaturalistic answers to life&#8217;s problems. That highly rational approach to life PLAGUES the Western world. We&#8217;ve made it nigh unto impossible to move beyond our dependence on science to explain everything that happens. For that reason Westerners suffer from a scientific version of what we saw of the faithless denizens of Jesus&#8217; hometown who said, &#8220;Isn&#8217;t that Jesus, the carpenter&#8217;s son?&#8221; And if that&#8217;s how we think, the number of miracles we&#8217;re going to see will, by nature of our unbelief, be diminished. I think that explains most of those cases where no healing comes. That is our fault. It is also the fault of the age. It&#8217;s something all of us have been marinated in since day one, so it&#8217;s remarkably hard to purge. It&#8217;s also why the West is not seeing revival anymore, but the more &#8220;demon-haunted&#8221; East is.</p>
<p>2. James says, &#8220;The prayer of Faith.&#8221; What is faith? How is it practically expressed. As I&#8217;ve noted in the series I&#8217;m in, how many of us truly live by Give us this day our daily bread? If we&#8217;re not used to living there, we won&#8217;t see as many products of faith. We&#8217;ll manufacturer most of our solutions out of the flesh.</p>
<p>3. &#8220;On demand power&#8221; is a tricky issue. I believe that God is coherent in Himself and in His word. If He says that He imbues His people with His power so that they can accomplish His will, then there is no reason to believe that the power is NOT &#8220;on demand.&#8221; As the Bible says, the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. When we see healings in the Bible, the one used for healing is surprised by the healing that operates through them. When Peter confronted the cripple at the gate and told the man he had no gold, but could instead give him something better, I don&#8217;t think that Peter walked away from that healing saying, &#8220;Wow! I can&#8217;t believe that actually worked!&#8221; Again, that&#8217;s our problem. We don&#8217;t understand what God has given us through His indwelling, so subsequently, we put no faith in its working. Jesus said that the one who speaks to the mountain and does not doubt will see it cast into the sea. That sounds like on-demand power to me.</p>
<p>4. Ours is not a culture that thinks faith first and everything else second. We always place faith second. &#8220;Well, we&#8217;ve tried everything else. I guess all we can do is pray!&#8221; That&#8217;s our thinking. That&#8217;s not faith, though. The truly faithful place faith first and everything else second. Only that is real faith. That is why real faith in America is largely a vapor rather than a solid reality.</p>
<p>5. Does God use illness as a corrective or to show His glory? Yes, He does. But He also very clearly shows that sickness and disease are NOT part of His Kingdom. They are aberrant states of being. In nearly every case in the Bible, sickness is used to show how God overcomes it. Christ came to initiate a Kingdom that reduced (now) and eliminated (later) suffering, NOT to make peace with it. Just as God used pagan nations to correct a wayward Israel, he can use suffering to get us to wake up to our real condition. But again, as I read the Bible, suffering is to be overcome, not tolerated.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll leave with this highly informative passage:</p>
<blockquote><p>And someone from the crowd answered him, &#8220;Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.&#8221; And he answered them, &#8220;O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.&#8221; And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. And Jesus asked his father, &#8220;How long has this been happening to him?&#8221; And he said, &#8220;From childhood. And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.&#8221; And Jesus said to him, &#8220;&#8216;If you can&#8217;! All things are possible for one who believes.&#8221; Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, &#8220;I believe; help my unbelief!&#8221;<br />
—Mark 9:17-24</p></blockquote>
<p>Jesus was amazed that the father of the boy tossed back the &#8220;If you can&#8221; comment. That was nothing but unbelief. Yet isn&#8217;t that how so many of us live? Well, we can&#8217;t live like that too much longer, especially if all of our man-made props start falling apart.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Block</title>
		<link>http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-theology-part-2.html#comment-36716</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Block</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-theology-part-2.html#comment-36716</guid>
		<description>Dan,

It&#039;s Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, edited by Walter A. Elwell, Baker Book House. I&#039;ll try to take another look at it tonight and see how it matches up with the points you&#039;ve raised.

Our elders are going to visit and pray over a friend of my wife who suddenly has been diagnosed with cancer that has spread to many places in her body. Given your view of this passage, if she isn&#039;t healed, we should conclude it&#039;s because the elders lacked faith, right?

Given your view of this passage, you must disagree with the idea that in some cases it&#039;s God&#039;s will to allow physical affliction to continue, and that the prayers of elders would not change that, right?

You&#039;ve mentioned healings that have taken place at your church. I don&#039;t doubt that they&#039;ve taken place and that they&#039;re miraculous rather than the power of suggestion or positive thinking. Given your view of this passage, healing happens every single time your elders pray in faith, right?

If this were a Proverb, I could more easily accept your understanding of the passage because -- correct me if I&#039;m wrong -- Proverbs are generally true, but not necessarily 100% of the time, not when other spiritual principles supersede them.

Again, I believe that God uses prayers spoken in faith to heal others. I just don&#039;t think it&#039;s an &quot;on demand&quot; power, but rather something God does when it&#039;s according to His will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, edited by Walter A. Elwell, Baker Book House. I&#8217;ll try to take another look at it tonight and see how it matches up with the points you&#8217;ve raised.</p>
<p>Our elders are going to visit and pray over a friend of my wife who suddenly has been diagnosed with cancer that has spread to many places in her body. Given your view of this passage, if she isn&#8217;t healed, we should conclude it&#8217;s because the elders lacked faith, right?</p>
<p>Given your view of this passage, you must disagree with the idea that in some cases it&#8217;s God&#8217;s will to allow physical affliction to continue, and that the prayers of elders would not change that, right?</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve mentioned healings that have taken place at your church. I don&#8217;t doubt that they&#8217;ve taken place and that they&#8217;re miraculous rather than the power of suggestion or positive thinking. Given your view of this passage, healing happens every single time your elders pray in faith, right?</p>
<p>If this were a Proverb, I could more easily accept your understanding of the passage because &#8212; correct me if I&#8217;m wrong &#8212; Proverbs are generally true, but not necessarily 100% of the time, not when other spiritual principles supersede them.</p>
<p>Again, I believe that God uses prayers spoken in faith to heal others. I just don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s an &#8220;on demand&#8221; power, but rather something God does when it&#8217;s according to His will.</p>
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