Comments on: Cleansing the Charismatic Crackup, Part 2 http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/08/cleansing-the-charismatic-crackup-part-2.html Looking for the 1st century Church in 21st century America Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:03:35 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Dan Edelen http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/08/cleansing-the-charismatic-crackup-part-2.html#comment-45231 Dan Edelen Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:46:10 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=980#comment-45231 And yet just as many people who say they are Christians actively resist the Holy Spirit, which is a sin. The truth is to test all gifts and without forbidding them entirely. Forbidding them entirely is not discernment, but a blanket condemnation. I cannot believe that blanket condemnation pleases God in the least. I have said many times on this blog that I believe the charismata to be rarer than most charismatics make them out to be. What I have not said is that they have vanished altogether, because it takes a great amount of textual dancing to make them go away. The clear reading is that they were given to the Church for all time; anything else, I believe, is a tortured reading. And yet just as many people who say they are Christians actively resist the Holy Spirit, which is a sin.

The truth is to test all gifts and without forbidding them entirely. Forbidding them entirely is not discernment, but a blanket condemnation. I cannot believe that blanket condemnation pleases God in the least.

I have said many times on this blog that I believe the charismata to be rarer than most charismatics make them out to be. What I have not said is that they have vanished altogether, because it takes a great amount of textual dancing to make them go away. The clear reading is that they were given to the Church for all time; anything else, I believe, is a tortured reading.

]]> By: Jonathan CHM http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/08/cleansing-the-charismatic-crackup-part-2.html#comment-45221 Jonathan CHM Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:50:36 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=980#comment-45221 Charismatic people might argue that love and the so-called, gift, could exist side by side in Charismatic churches. They might argue that Charismatic people have more love than non-Charismatic people since their love extends even to every household since they exercise miraculous healings publicly so as many people could be healed from their illnesses. Not only that, they could even take that opportunity to preach to non-Christians through rallies. They could even condemn non-Charismatic churches since they are not so actively involved in preaching as compared to Charismatic churches. John Calvin spoke in tongues. Acts 2:8-10, "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, Medes.... From the above verses, we know that tongues are indeed languages and/or dialects. Do you know whether John Calvin spoke in foreign languages and/or dialects? If you could not prove whether he spoke in languages and/or dialects, we could not ascertain whether John Calvin was speaking in tongues or he just speaks nonsensical words. Bear in mind, tongues in the book of Acts are languages/dialects. If a person speaks not in foreign languages/dialects, he simply speaks garbage and not in tongues. 1 Corinthians 14;21, "in the law it is written, †˜With (men of) other tongues and other lips will I speak with this people and yet for all that will they not hear me', saith the Lord. As the phrase, other tongues, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:21 with the phrase, I speak with this people, it implies that tongues are definitely languages and/or dialects or else how God could converse with us then. 1 Corinth 14:2, "for that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, for no man understandeth (him).... For 1 Corinth 14:4, "He that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue edifieth himself.... For instance, if tongues are not languages and/or dialects and it cannot be understood by the speaker, how the tongues could edify the speaker himself since 1 Corinth 14:4 mentions that tongues have to edify the speaker. 1 Corinth 14:10, "There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them (is) without significant. As the phrase, many kind of voices, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:10 with the phrase, the world, it definitely refers to languages and/or dialects in the world instead of outside the world, ie. alien language. McArthur claimed to have other tongues that could not be understood by human beings are not biblical. What if the so-called, tongues, in contemporary Charismatic churches are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the comment that their tongues are from God or the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ would cause one to abuse the name of them and it in turn blasphemes any one of them. 1 Corinth 14;14, "For if I pray in an (unknown) tongue pray that he may interpret. The above verse demands a tongue spoker to pray for his understanding of tongues. 1 Corinth 14;37, "If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. The phrase, the things that I write to you, in 1 Corinth 14:37 is in present tense and it implies that the words that Paul just delivered for his message to the Church of Corinthians is indeed God's commandment and this includes 1 Corinth 14:14. 1 Corinth 14:15, "What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with understanding also; I will sing with Spirit, and I will sing with understanding also. For instance, the speaker could not understand the tongue, how could they sing and pray with understanding and this contradicts 1 Corinth 14:15. Charismatic people might argue that love and the so-called, gift, could exist side by side in Charismatic churches. They might argue that Charismatic people have more love than non-Charismatic people since their love extends even to every household since they exercise miraculous healings publicly so as many people could be healed from their illnesses. Not only that, they could even take that opportunity to preach to non-Christians through rallies. They could even condemn non-Charismatic churches since they are not so actively involved in preaching as compared to Charismatic churches.

John Calvin spoke in tongues. Acts 2:8-10, “And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, Medes…. From the above verses, we know that tongues are indeed languages and/or dialects. Do you know whether John Calvin spoke in foreign languages and/or dialects? If you could not prove whether he spoke in languages and/or dialects, we could not ascertain whether John Calvin was speaking in tongues or he just speaks nonsensical words. Bear in mind, tongues in the book of Acts are languages/dialects. If a person speaks not in foreign languages/dialects, he simply speaks garbage and not in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14;21, “in the law it is written, †˜With (men of) other tongues and other lips will I speak with this people and yet for all that will they not hear me’, saith the Lord. As the phrase, other tongues, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:21 with the phrase, I speak with this people, it implies that tongues are definitely languages and/or dialects or else how God could converse with us then.

1 Corinth 14:2, “for that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, for no man understandeth (him)…. For 1 Corinth 14:4, “He that speaketh in an (unknown) tongue edifieth himself…. For instance, if tongues are not languages and/or dialects and it cannot be understood by the speaker, how the tongues could edify the speaker himself since 1 Corinth 14:4 mentions that tongues have to edify the speaker.

1 Corinth 14:10, “There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them (is) without significant. As the phrase, many kind of voices, is mentioned in 1 Corinth 14:10 with the phrase, the world, it definitely refers to languages and/or dialects in the world instead of outside the world, ie. alien language. McArthur claimed to have other tongues that could not be understood by human beings are not biblical.

What if the so-called, tongues, in contemporary Charismatic churches are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the comment that their tongues are from God or the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ would cause one to abuse the name of them and it in turn blasphemes any one of them.

1 Corinth 14;14, “For if I pray in an (unknown) tongue pray that he may interpret. The above verse demands a tongue spoker to pray for his understanding of tongues. 1 Corinth 14;37, “If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. The phrase, the things that I write to you, in 1 Corinth 14:37 is in present tense and it implies that the words that Paul just delivered for his message to the Church of Corinthians is indeed God’s commandment and this includes 1 Corinth 14:14.

1 Corinth 14:15, “What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with understanding also; I will sing with Spirit, and I will sing with understanding also. For instance, the speaker could not understand the tongue, how could they sing and pray with understanding and this contradicts 1 Corinth 14:15.

]]> By: Jonathan CHM http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/08/cleansing-the-charismatic-crackup-part-2.html#comment-45174 Jonathan CHM Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:01:46 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=980#comment-45174 Holy Laughter, holy bark, holy drunkard and etc. are not found in the book of Acts during the Pentecost. Some Charismatic churches might use the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. from the Old and New Testaments to support these movements. However, bear in mind that the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. are mentioned instead of the full phrase of holy laughter, holy bark and etc. What if these practices are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these practices are from the work of Holy Spirit has caused one to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and it would have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the wrong saying that these are the work of them. However, the Holy Spirit does not do it. One has indeed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by abusing the name of the Holy Spirit despite he does not do it. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgivable according to the New Testament. Holy Laughter, holy bark, holy drunkard and etc. are not found in the book of Acts during the Pentecost. Some Charismatic churches might use the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. from the Old and New Testaments to support these movements. However, bear in mind that the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. are mentioned instead of the full phrase of holy laughter, holy bark and etc. What if these practices are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these practices are from the work of Holy Spirit has caused one to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and it would have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the wrong saying that these are the work of them. However, the Holy Spirit does not do it. One has indeed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by abusing the name of the Holy Spirit despite he does not do it. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgivable according to the New Testament.

]]> By: Cerulean Sanctum’s Best Posts of 2008 | Cerulean Sanctum http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/08/cleansing-the-charismatic-crackup-part-2.html#comment-43672 Cerulean Sanctum’s Best Posts of 2008 | Cerulean Sanctum Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:22:08 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=980#comment-43672 [...] Cleansing the Charismatic Crackup, Part 2 [...]

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