Comments on: Pentecost, 21st Century http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/09/pentecost-21st-century.html Looking for the 1st century Church in 21st century America Tue, 22 May 2012 03:53:34 +0000 hourly 1 By: Dan Edelenhttp://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/09/pentecost-21st-century.html#comment-45363 Dan Edelen Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:15:03 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=992#comment-45363 BTW, Jonathan, I lay out some simple, Biblical tests for determining the veracity of charismatic gifts in "<a href="http://ceruleansanctum.com/2003/09/charismatic-churches-and-cult-of-new.html" rel="nofollow">Charismatic Churches and the Cult of the New</a>". BTW, Jonathan, I lay out some simple, Biblical tests for determining the veracity of charismatic gifts in “Charismatic Churches and the Cult of the New“.

]]> By: Dan Edelenhttp://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/09/pentecost-21st-century.html#comment-45362 Dan Edelen Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:10:56 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=992#comment-45362 Jonathan, You have put yourself into an untenable position: 1. You acknowledge that the gifts of the Spirit as mentioned in the Bible are legitimate and have not ceased. 2. You then say that for a gift to truly come from God, it must be discerned as being from Him. 3. Yet you also say that it is not possible to tell definitively whether a charismatic gift comes from God or not. And then you add that unless that is known perfectly, a person will be damned for blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. You and I agree on #1 and #2. We do not agree on #3. In fact, the way you argue #3 renders #1 moot. The charismata become gifts that no one can use because it can never be determined whether they come from God or not. Oddly enough, the early Church was able to deal with this in such a way that they could determine real from false gifts. Nor did they shy away from such determinations. But you close the gifts down altogether because you say that the risk for making that determination is too chancy. In short, from your position, they may as well never have existed at all! Aren't you telling God that He doesn't know what He is doing when He gives these gifts to men? Jonathan,

You have put yourself into an untenable position:

1. You acknowledge that the gifts of the Spirit as mentioned in the Bible are legitimate and have not ceased.
2. You then say that for a gift to truly come from God, it must be discerned as being from Him.
3. Yet you also say that it is not possible to tell definitively whether a charismatic gift comes from God or not. And then you add that unless that is known perfectly, a person will be damned for blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

You and I agree on #1 and #2. We do not agree on #3. In fact, the way you argue #3 renders #1 moot. The charismata become gifts that no one can use because it can never be determined whether they come from God or not.

Oddly enough, the early Church was able to deal with this in such a way that they could determine real from false gifts. Nor did they shy away from such determinations.

But you close the gifts down altogether because you say that the risk for making that determination is too chancy. In short, from your position, they may as well never have existed at all! Aren’t you telling God that He doesn’t know what He is doing when He gives these gifts to men?

]]> By: Dan Edelenhttp://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/09/pentecost-21st-century.html#comment-45341 Dan Edelen Thu, 30 Jul 2009 03:18:17 +0000 http://ceruleansanctum.com/?p=992#comment-45341 Jonathan, As an example of what you are doing, I will use the same profoundly flawed reasoning to make a similar error-filled statement: "{The kind of people Johnathan agrees with spiritually} say they believe in Jesus Christ. However, they depend mostly on their intellects, their systematic systematic theologies, and whatever they are told to think by their leaders. Whenever they think and rationalize the existence of some forms of power, they conclude that because they have not experienced them in their own churches, they no longer exists. They say that the Holy Spirit is only experienced in wise sayings and a strong sermon. They say they are saved, but because they so thoroughly live in their intellects, they have no understand of the God's deep and abiding emotional life, the same life He gives His true children. As a result, such people can pass by those who have been wounded emotionally by those who have done them grievous harm and show those poor souls no compassion. They are the elder brother who looks down on the prodigal, unaware of the father's forgiveness and love, and so they miss genuine salvation. They have not love, and have been reduced to a clanging cymbal." Jonathan, I have privately warned you in the past. I am publicly warning you now. Jonathan,

As an example of what you are doing, I will use the same profoundly flawed reasoning to make a similar error-filled statement: “{The kind of people Johnathan agrees with spiritually} say they believe in Jesus Christ. However, they depend mostly on their intellects, their systematic systematic theologies, and whatever they are told to think by their leaders. Whenever they think and rationalize the existence of some forms of power, they conclude that because they have not experienced them in their own churches, they no longer exists. They say that the Holy Spirit is only experienced in wise sayings and a strong sermon. They say they are saved, but because they so thoroughly live in their intellects, they have no understand of the God’s deep and abiding emotional life, the same life He gives His true children. As a result, such people can pass by those who have been wounded emotionally by those who have done them grievous harm and show those poor souls no compassion. They are the elder brother who looks down on the prodigal, unaware of the father’s forgiveness and love, and so they miss genuine salvation. They have not love, and have been reduced to a clanging cymbal.”

Jonathan, I have privately warned you in the past. I am publicly warning you now.

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