“A Church for People Who Don’t Like Church”
July 5, 2006
Posted by Dan Edelen in : Best of Cerulean Sanctum, Christianity in North America, Church Issues Functions : Trackback,
,
A church located on one of the major highways that we routinely travel has a huge sign out front that reads
"A Church for People Who Don't Like Church."
I think about that sign every tiime I pass it, wondering what it is about "church" that shoos away the average person. Those of us who have been churchgoers for a long time take going to church for granted, but if the polls are right, more and more people are staying home on Sunday.
So what say you all? What do you believe are the parts of the whole we call "church" that people don't like?
Dire Dan: “So what say you all?”
Well, er, I suspect it might have something to do with America increasingly becoming a “post-xtian” society, much like what Europe already is. That would be the very short answer.
According his book “A Peculiar People: the Church as Culture in a Post Christian Society”, Rodney Clapp says that it can actually work out for the good now that the Church no longer “calls the shots” on how the larger culture is constituted.
(In fact, Clapp’s book has so much to chew on that I’m re-reading it twice.)
Oengus,
I’ve heard great things about Clapp’s research. He’s the one that said that the Church in Rome grew in large part because Christians were the only ones willing to tend to the sick.
“What do you believe are the parts of the whole we call ‘church’ that people don’t like?
Uh, maybe the people attending the church?
Not meaning to be cynical, just succinct.
Mike,
Could you be more specific? What is it about the people in the church that non-churchgoers might not like?
Dan:
One of the DWM–I think it was David Martyn Llloyd-Jones–said in words to this effect that life lived in Christ and His Power is self-commending. When the work of the likes of Barna regularly remind us that there is not an observable difference between the behaviors of “Christians” and culture, there is little observable transformation occuring in the lives of the Churched, and little, therefore, commending “life In Him” to unchurched onlookers. If the world can’t tell the difference between a Rotarian and a Christian there probably isn’t one, and so the Spiritually needy sleep in, stay home, and are fed watching Sunday morning TV and consuming extra cups of coffee.
Your Brother in Christ,
Derek
Derek,
What are a few of the transformational differences that would cause unbelievers to see real Christians as being different from them?
I should probably let Derek answer your question, but
love for one another (John 13:34-35) and unity in Christ (John 17:21) would be my answers. (Can you tell which book on your “essentials” list I just finished?) I wonder if Barna or another group has ever attempted to measure these kinds of things.
I think it has something to do with the overall shallowness of many Christians. To make church optional provides a glorious morning to sleep in and to do some catch up wprk on everything that needs to be done. Also, going to a church without getting to know the people is pointless, and many Christians are reluctant to open up their lives to other Christians becuase they are afraid of being burned for it. Or else going to church is too convicting and they would rather live their lives the way they want to.
That’s just my theory off the top of my head. =D I really miss going to church….and the very day I’m well enough there’s not going to be a thing anyone would be able to do to stop me from going, if I have to walk there barefoot!
Hehe…God bless
Heidi,
I spoke to a woman this week who said that her only time to get eight hours of sleep is on Sunday morning. She’s not kidding, either. Between her work and some truly difficult circumstances she’s in, she’s on the go 24/7/365. If church is unavailable to her, what options does she have?
church on t.v.? I don’t think so.
I believe that the actor (pastor/staff/music team) audience (pew-sitters/lay-people) nature of “church” is a major culprit. It is difficult to be authentic in such a setting. You stare at the back of some body’s head while someone else stares at the back of your head. Grin and grip for 45 seconds, sing, listen to some guy talk, give, and get home ASAP. Church is like a play. Grab your program and enjoy the show.
I believe there is way more to the church than what we see. The fact that many “go to church” instead of “exist as the church” is evidence of how misguided we can be. There is often such a wide chasm between the show (public services) and the way life is that hypocrisy is almost fostered. The difference between life and death in a church is often body life where ever member is a minister.
We have handcuffed the people of God to pews while a few clergy become the embodiment of body life in and of themselves. Until we loose God’s people to minister we’ll never see the kind of dynamic Holy Spirit ministry we need.
The expectation is that pastor’s equip God’s people for the work of ministry but people never learn what real ministry is while they sit in a chair.
It might be better if we considered our small groups, house churches, and mentoring relationships as the seed bed of a dynamic Christian life. Public services could serve as places we celebrate what Christ has been doing in body life on occasion. Too much control is exerted upon God’s people. Don’t worry, doctrinal purity can still be a priority. We need to empower God’s people to act like his people by getting out of the way.
Jeff, expand this for us. Give us examples of this “hypocrisy” and how it’s resolved.
Are people that clueless? Or is it something else?
Church leaders have gotten out of the way, but then the people just sit there. I don’t think church leaders have hamstrung people.
I think that a lot of people in our churches are like Michigan J. Frog from that classic cartoon, “One Froggy Evening.” The construction worker finds a frog encased in a demolished building’s cornerstone. Upon being freed, the frog puts on a top hat, then dances and sings. Yet every time the construction worker tries to show anyone else the frog’s talents, it just sits there and croaks.
I suspect a lot of church leaders see this same phenomenon in their congregants. They repeatedly hear what they can do to help, yet most of them sit there. The leaders know they can sing and dance, but they don’t.
Why do you think this is?
Dan,
I think your question has a few trails that lead to answers. One is that our culture is losing respect for church doctrine and it’s related calls to Holy Living. Most think the church having any expectations for them as they progress in their spiritual maturity is “legalistic”. The plurality of acceptable beliefs in our society now leads people to believe they can worship on their own time and in their own way and live however they want and a church that has expectations is just a prison with rules.
The second trail leads to a generation that is coming of age where no church background is present. In the past you always had someone in the family with some background but this is the first large scale generation with little church upbringing so winning them to the Lord is a challenge. They aren’t sure about church, don’t know what to expect, and are afraid of rejection if they do come.
Just some thoughts
Scott,
What doctrines are familiar to people who have never stepped foot into a church? Why do you think people would be opposed to them if they don’t truly know them and have never had a Christian frame doctrine in any way?
What if we led our evangelism with the person of Jesus Christ rather than with do’s and dont’s? What if we stopped using church as our primary means to evangelize, leading people to Christ BEFORE they stepped through the doors of a church?
Dan,
In making this statement, I was sharing what I’ve heard from my own personal experience as a church planter. Many people who have some church background….(i.e. someone in their family has been in a church) are well aware that getting serious about serving Christ and being part of a life-giving body of believers will bring about expectations of change after a period of time. No more drinking…No more cursing…No more living together with someone who isn’t your spouse…etc.. That sounds very simplistic but I’m trying to be brief here. I’ve had unchurched folks tell me they either have no time for church or they don’t feel like having to change their lives because that’s what they saw in their family.
That, my friend, is the goal. To allow Christ to endwell us so deeply that his love, mercy, and majesty gushes from the abundance of what is in our hearts. That would be attractive to the unchurched and if that is what was offered, I dare say we’d have more folks in church. Alas, in today’s culture, you don’t have many folks willing to drink deep to learn spiritual discipline to bring about that effect.
I think much has been said that hit’s it on the head. It seems that ‘Christian’ = ‘Churchgoer’ in modern society. I wonder if that was how it was originally. I can’t see how. Why would folks want to crucify you for where you spent your Sunday mornings?
I’ve been out of college for 15 years, but when I went away to Cinci for college, I dismissed the idea of going to church out of hand. No need for it. A life of attending church had taught me two things:
Put thiose two things together and you can see why I left home seeing no need to arise early to go to church on Sunday. Oh I thought I knew God and understood Christianity, I just didn’t need Church. It was irrelevant to my reationship to the father.
I fundamentally misunderstood what the Church really was, mostly because those around me misunderstood it as well. What I had been shown was a social club and I didn’t need one. Especially one so superficial and shallow.
Doug,
Good points. Yours is an object lesson in how we’ve mishandled church.
Speaking as a never-married fortysomething, I can’t help but notice how the American church appears interested in ministering only to families even though the most recent census revealed that nearly half the adult population is single. In fact, some evangelicals have resorted to stigmatizing singleness and even depicting singles who don’t marry by a certain age as sinners. Not only does that drive Christian singles out of the church, it makes evangelization of singles who don’t yet know the Lord much more difficult.
Ccinnova,
How the church treats singles is a BIG issue. We tend to compartmentalize people, shunting them into groups that share their demographic. So much for being a family!
I second the compartmentalizing thing. When I moved to go to college, the first thing I did was find a tiny church that didn’t have enough college-age kids to start a program for them. If Campus Crusade or the other campus churches had been my only options, I very likely would have stayed home.
I think part of the aversion to being compartmentalized comes out of the deep suspicion that you’re being sold something in church. You get separated into groups, target audiences, with whom the church can use specialized tactics for making a sell. If the church has abandoned teaching for a sales pitch, or comes across as having done so, then why waste your time? When except the Super Bowl do people voluntarily come to an event to be marketed to?
Becky, I never feared being marketed to, but I’ve only been seriously involved in one church as an adult, so perhaps my experience is skewed. I have long held, however, the singles are underutilized and not recruited enough to do stuff married people don’t have time do. We spend too much time trying to get singles married, preaching on the benefits of marriage and family, while forgetting what Paul said was so beneficial about being single in the first place!
i agree–i recently bacame single and i attend church!!! i feel so alone being alone!!! am waiting for the LORD to bring that special someone, still waiting!!!!! God bless, jim
ps: i feel married pastors are much more happier than single pastors!! now i know why GOD said to adam in the garden “man should not be alone” !! Amen
pss: being alone stinks & gets depressing after a while!! sincerely, alone in florida
Why don’t people like church? Interesting question.
I suppose the main reason people stay away from church is because they are spiritually dead. Without spiritual life, there is no reason to seek what the church has to offer. Maybe some people go to church looking for answers to their problems and end up finding spiritual life, but I suspect that the majority of people in America today do not see a need to go to church before they see a need for salvation.
For those who are believers, those who possess spiritual life, the reasons for staying away from church probably fall into a few broad categories:
Immaturity and self-centeredness. It’s all about me. What will the church do for me? What am I going to get out of it? What programs do they have for me? How will they meet my needs? Will they make me feel good? Will I get the recognition I deserve? What’s in it for me? Me. Me. Me.
Going to church puts a person in a position where he may feel obligated to do something more than sit and watch others do all the work.
Some people demand to be entertained at all times. If the pastor, choir, etc., aren’t entertaining enough, some people stay away completely or else hop around from church to church seeking the best show.
Church life requires commitment. That scares away the modern American.
Many people want to know what they can get from going to church. Few ask what they can give by going to church.
Northwriter, You’re onto some good points here….
I believe declining church membership has a lot to do with how people think of church leadership. Let’s assume for the moment trust in church leadership is not the issue. Even before church leaders started making scandalous headlines, the consensus of a lot of people seemed to be church leaders are the ones being holy for the rest of us. Attendance, while helpful, is not necessary.
The less people feel useful as church members, the less likely they’re going to show up. By that, I don’t mean people aren’t being asked to help out, such as children’s service, etc. I think it’s a larger issue of many church leaders across all denominations fail to utilize talents and lack a ministry outside the church doors that might inspire people to show up and be used.
If you want to throw in people who see church as a place about “me,” and some of the other common criticisms, I think that’s how you arrive at the cumulative number of people who no longer attend church.
Amen to what Northwriter said.
I was glad to see someone pointing the finger at personal responsibilty instead of blaming the church for not meeting expectations.
S-I-N. People don’t like the word, nor do they want to hear any preaching on it. The Bible is full of calling people to repentance, practically every book- unbelievers do *not* want to hear about this- especially in the “moral-relativism” age. Isn’t this obvious?
Scott Cheatham’s second trail (up there somewhere) is right on as well.
Bonnie,
Though I believe the American church today is weak on preaching against sin, I’m not certain sin is the issue that keeps people away from church. I think most people are aware of their sin, even unbelievers. I’ve never met an unbeliever who didn’t have some concept of their own personal sin.
If your assessment is correct, then people who don’t want to hear about sin wouldn’t go to a “church for people who don’t go to church” either, even if that church wasn’t big on preaching against sin.
I think there’s more to it than not wanting to hear someone call them to repentance.
In my experience, quite a few people who leave church and never come back have been deeply hurt by harsh and judgemental legalism, or lousy (i.e. non-existent) discipling. My younger sister’s faith was wrecked by the vicious words hurled about by church elders and those who should have known better during a particularly acrimonious church split in our little Brethren assembly (I was at university at the time). ‘If that’s how Christians behave,’ she said to my mother, ‘you can forget it.’
People have been leaving the traditional church in Britain in droves over the past few decades.
The churches that aregrowing here are non-traditional, charismatic, family orientated, youth-orientated, and have a good all-age mix. Our black churches are among the ones growing the most.
Christians are hungry for authenticity and community. If the church lacks those virtues, people will walk out. They are too stressed out in today’s manic culture to settle for something that feels second-rate, mediocre, and insincere.
I also know a number of Christians who are deeply unhappy in their churches. Fed up with a lack of meaty teaching, fed up with nobody listening to deep pastoral struggles, fed up with feeling marginalised.
Yes, there are shallow church-hoppers around. But the people I have in mind here are sincere Christians who have been hurt by the church.
Philippa,
Many of the issues you bring up are enormous problems that need to be addressed by church leaders today.
Dan, indeed.
Of course we should all remember that church does not exist to meet all of our needs all of the time. Of course we should be giving and serving as well as receiving. But I think it is reasonable - and biblical - to expect that an authentic Christian community would be meeting SOME of its peoples’ deep pastoral needs. And of course it should be feeding them biblically.
Gee. People don’t come to church because it’s their fault. -_-
No, I think it’s simplistic to point the finger at people and say that it’s because they don’t want to hear about sin or because they do not desire God and that’s the reason why.
I think it’s a mixture of reasons. The reason above is possible for some, but I think many turn away from churches because of bad experiences in church as well. It took a supreme act of will and determination for me to return to church, and till this day, to be honest, I’m still a lousy churchgoer. I have not attended church for two months.
Not that I don’t find my church ‘entertaining’ or ‘fun’ enough, but because I have lots of commitments and also because I find it difficult to go because it’s so far.
I really relate to what Jeff said about going to church on Sunday to clap your hands, sing and hear someone talk. I too find it so irrelevant, and I find it very difficult to motivate myself to go to something which I can’t seem to relate to. Something is missing … not sure what.
Well, I’m just saying that blaming the non-churchgoer for not attending is not exactly the greatest thing to do. Saying things like “you don’t desire God enough” is just off-putting. Statements like that just make the non-churchgoer even more determined NOT to attend church so to avoid people who say these things.
There have already been several good comments here, so I’m not sure how much, if anything, I can add.
I agree with those who feel like there is a mixture of factors involved. I also agree that it’s a bit too simplistic to say that those who don’t “attend church” are the problem themselves.
Someone said that leaders stay “in the way” and that people never really learn what ministry is, and Dan responded by saying that when the leaders get out of the way, the people just sit there. In my experience, I have never seen leaders truly “get out of the way”. Many times, it is preached from the pulpit that everyone needs to be ministering, but this usually boils down to filling holes in the system itself. In other words, when I have heard leaders preach about member ministry, it’s because they need more Sunday School teachers, or someone to help maintain the physical facilities, or someone to….what I’m getting at is that the focus feels like it is always on keeping the machine rolling so that we can attract more people in.
There really is a sense in which the system we have actually does get in the way. Leaders can’t really “step out of the way” in the system, because if they truly did, there would be no need to pay them a full-time salary. It is a conflict of interest for a professional clergy member to try to nurture a body of active ministers, unless he wants to work himself out of a job.
Finally, one brief comment about the original question itself. If Barna is right, people are not “staying home on Sunday” because they are not interested in church. Many of us meet in other ways at other times, but if you ask me “Do you go to church?” it’s not a simple “yes/no” answer. Unfortunately, polls usually look for simple answers.
Do I attend church? No. Do I go to church on Sunday morning? No. Is there a building that I can point to and say, “That’s my church”? No. Am I part of the Body of Christ, growing in my relationship with Him and with others, living out the commands of Jesus in relation to others, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, but spurring one another on to love and good deeds, teaching and being taught by others, etc. etc. etc.? Absolutely YES.
steve
Steve,
I think there’s a need to fill those “system” positions. Sunday School teachers ARE needed if the church has part of its educational system setup that way. We do need to make disciples!
Most of the churches I’ve been a part of the last twenty years have been staffed by leaders who truly did want to get out of the way and let their people minister. The problem was that the people didn’t want to minister all that much. Part of that problem is the clock-driven culture we live in and the fact that most people are running around like crazy. But there’s a deeper problem there than just frantic people.
Since you aren’t apart of a local worshiping body in the traditional sense, how are you fulfilling meeting together, teaching and being taught, etc.?
Sorry I’m just now gettng to respond, Dan. I agree that the positions in the “system” need to be filled, but I see that sometimes as the extent to which leaders think that they need to talk about everybody ministering. In other words, it feels self-serving to me.
I don’t doubt that our experiences might be very different, so I don’t want to appear to be questioning what you say you have seen in your past experiences.
In answer to your question, there is a community of believers here in our town who meet from house to house. I also have very close relationships with several of the men in that fellowship, and meet with them frequently over lunch or breakfast, or whatever.
Our “simple church” gatherings are usually quite full of mutual ministry and several of us are constantly thinking out loud with each other of how to make that an even more frequent thing.
You hit on something good with your comment about the clock-driven culture. Even those of us who desire to meet “daily from house to house” find that our cultural schedules often get in the way. We’re seeking ways to solve that problem.
steve
What keeps people away? (my short list)
1. Bad previous experience
2. Institutionalism
3. People who take “that Jesus stuff” seriously
4. Services too early Sunday morning
5. Services on Sunday
6. Services on weekends
7. A general lack of willingness to commit to anything
8. No real experience with the real Jesus Christ
I could probably go on, but I think you get the picture.
Rev-Ed,
You hit a lot of home runs with that list. I find it hard to argue with any of it, although I do think #3 can be overcome if the people who take “that Jesus stuff” seriously are also very loving and genuine.
Hi Dan and rev-ed,
I know this will sound simplistic, but at the core, I think the reason a true Christian stays away from Church is because the Pastor DOESN’T take “that Jesus stuff” seriously and the reason a non-believer would stay away from Church is because the Pastor DOES take “that Jesus stuff” seriously.
I live in California where my view of reality is sometimes distorted, but I can’t name a single Pastor I know who lives a “deny self : take up cross : follow Christ” life. Pastors here drive newer cars than most of the congregation, live in bigger houses than most of the congregation, wear better clothes than most of the congregation, vacation better and more often than most of the congregation, etc. The servant leader is missing in Church and consequently, so are the Christians.
Maybe it’s just me … but I kinda smell the scent of self-righteousness in some of these comments. -_-” Oh well, ignore me … it’s just probably me.
Maybe because I’m not exactly a stellar church goer myself … so I feel kinda looked down upon and eventhough I agree with the “lack of commitment” that rev-ed pointed out (very true for my case), perhaps one of the right questions to ask is why are people unwilling to commit to anything?
Ruth,
Any criticism can sound like self-righteousness if it exists in a vacuum. If we do something positive with our judgments, then I think self-righteousness fades away.
I thought I should include a link to this article by a pastor from my country: http://www.graceatwork.org/view.php3?Id=325
I have been an evangelical Christian and a churchgoer for more than thirty years, and I *HATE* church.
Let me elaborate on some experiences since I’ve turned 18 –
1) Big church with a “Crusade” vision. Praying every morning, up at 4:30 to pass out flyers. Much work and effort. Comes the big day, 400 people show up in a city of 100,000. Three days, and nothing.
Next day we start up an even BIGGER crusade. I begin to wonder when I’m going to stop crusading and actually start learning something about this Christian walk. But no, it’s back out at o dark 30 to drop flyers on everyone’s doorstep. I tell the pastor I can’t keep this up. He tells me to “speak to my flesh”.
I do. I say “goodbye”.
2) Word of faith church, weird doctrine. Ran as fast as I could.
3) Less weird church, but pastor was a one-man show with seeming toadies for elders. The vibes he and his family gave off were not healthy at all. Saw the train wreck coming, bailed.
4) Settled in quiet Calvary Chapel until had to move to a new city. No complaints here.
5) New church is a charismatic church, seems pretty sane.
However, after two years I give up. Every single sermon is on “receiving God’s blessing” and “receiving God’s healing”. All good, as far as it goes, but isn’t there more to the walk than this? There has to be. The pastor wants his 50 person church to grow to 1100. I don’t see how this is possible and ask how he expects this to happen? “God told me it would happen”.
Well, it didn’t. It’s been 8 years and the church is still the same size it always was. Word of Faith pastor comes in, the whole eldership except one goes over to him, I get invited to a “deliverance session” … good-bye.
6) Next church is a mega-mega-mega church. Thousands of people. Building literally as big as a small stadium. Great programs, great teaching.
And in three years there, I make exactly two friends. Meanwhile, rest of family is sinking even worse than I am. Regrettably take my leave.
7) Small baptist church. It does well, but then the pastor we had leaves and the new guy buys into purpose-driven life in a big way. The homey atmosphere goes, replaced by a continued drive for Growth and More Growth. It turns into a small carbon-copy clone of the Big Church we just left … it has all the impersonality of the big church, but none of it’s numbers.
So … do you see why I hate church? I can understand one bad experience, but I have had repeated bad experience at multiple churches, for TWELVE YEARS.
So why am I still going? Because I take seriously the command not to “forsake the assembly”. I get up and go to church (though not every single Sunday, but multiple times a month) not because I like it … in fact there’s almost anything else I’d rather be doing, including the dentist … but because I believe obedience is important.
Things I see about American church:
1) Utter lack of any real spiritual life, both personal and corporate.Many of the churches I was in had no prayer at all, or a 5 to ten minute session on Wednesday night . Vanishingly small compared to their other programs.
I want relationship with Jesus Christ, both personal AND corporate. It seems to me that most churches lack prayer (or if they do pray, those prayers are all of the “give me” variety), and because of this they have little connection to the Head.
2) Lack of discipleship. In half of the churches I described, and all of the charismatic ones, discipleship was distinctly lacking, being sacrificed on the altar of Church Growth. Lots of desire to bring in new babies, little concern with the Christian life .. and such as there were was either twisted a la word of faith or very skewed, a la 30 consecutive sermons on “receiving your healing”.
3) Over-emphasis on programs and things. Too many Christians seem to have forgotten that Jesus spent most of his time equipping disciples — really just 12 of them — and none at all on the building they met in. IIRC, they didn’t have a building, and Jesus dismissed the Jewish Temple in two lines .. . “Do you see these stones? Not one will be left on top of the other”. Today, it seems that every church wants to be the Temple with a beautiful building and thousands of worshippers … forgetting the fate of the original.
I can sum up the problem in one line: Worldiness resulting from prosperity. I don’t mean “worldliness” in the sense of dancing or what one drinks or what one wears .. I’m speaking of worldly attitudes in which people focus on the visible things of the here and now, rather than the invisible things — and the people! — that really count for eternity.
Give me fewer programs and less marketing. Give me more prayer — REAL prayer, not just “heal so and so of her cancer” — and real discipleship.
Fortunately, this story does have a happy ending.
The last time I left a church, I prayed, looked at several house churches which had their own problems before settling in a church with a pastor who is reacting much the same way I am. Happy there for now. But even if — perhaps I should say when — this church succumbs to the same poison all the other ones do, I’m not going to quit. I will simply up stakes with my family and see if I can find another which I will also ride … for a season … until that one falls apart too.
Bottom line: The American church is a very sick place. This is why Emergent and house churches are all the rage … because regular churches have succumbed to a number of problems, with the underlying theme being worldliness brought on by generations of prosperity. House churches first occurred in communist countries because the “official” churches were corrupt. House churches are springing up here not because the government is corrupting us … we’re managing to corrupt ourselves!
Doesn’t mean that house churches are perfect. They aren’t. Doesn’t mean that all regular churches are tools of Satan. They are not. There are some very good ones. I’m in one. But the disease and the trend are undeniable.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Brian,
Your comment is both helpful and cautionary. I know every one of the churches you describe, and I can see how you would run. You’re right; there are a lot of problematic churches out there. We also gave up ourselves before we found the church we’re in now, one with great fellowship and an atmosphere of growth.
Thanks for sharing. I’m sure many people will nod reading your experiences.
Hey Dan,
This is a nifty wp plugin! Where did you get it?
Anyway, sorry if I sound petulant. I know I didn’t phrase it quite well - I was typing it in the sly at work
But yeah, I get what you mean.
I left church a year ago, after having a breakdown. I spent the first 30 years of my life in countless churches and never found Christ. I intend to spent the rest of my life destroying the church. When the church has been wiped off the face of the earth - that will be paradise.
Jonathan,
I’m truly sorry that the Church has treated you so badly. Jesus Christ is the Lord of All. If you could not find Him in the UK, that speaks more to the sorry state of churches in the UK than to the reality of His Lordship.
I fear that trying to wipe the Church off the face of the planet will result in the loss of a great deal of art, music, and literature, as much of it was created by Christians. You’ll also see most of the charitable organizations in the world vanish and along with them a great many of the people feeding the poor and lobbying for the disenfranchised in the world, countereffective to the paradise you hope to create. Most of the hospitals will disappear and all the many medical devices created by Christians. In fact, large swaths of the sciences will no longer exist. In fact, wiping the Church from the face of the planet will erase most of civilization as we know it, leaving instead a barbarous world that bears no resemblance at all to paradise.
I know you know this to be true.
I pray that you’ll find real Christians in the UK. I know they exist; I’ve met some.
Blessings.
Hey Dan - Was down in your neck of the state for a reunion of my old campus ministry. Good times.
Anyway, I was getting directions home and the freinds we had lunch with said “Oh, and look for the ‘Churhc for people who don’t like Church’ sign” Sure enough, there it was as we zipped down that highway.
I thought of you as I passed that church.
Doug,
See! I don’t just make this stuff up.
That last paragraph Jeff is pretty much the whole of it. Those outside of the church do not see the “real life” that we have as followers of Christ. By chance have you ever read “Dangerous Wonder” by Mike Yaconelli?
You do not have to go to church to have a relationship with God; nor are you considered spiritually dead if you do not go to church. Personally, I would rather read the bible myself and make my own mind up about what it says then, listen to a preacher tell me what the church’s views are about the bible. Also, the main problem I have with church is how different they interpret the bible. We are all children of God but, we spend so much more time separating ourselves from each other in the name of our own religious denomination.
There are ocassions when ‘holding fast to the faith delivered once for all to the saints’ has led to big events like the Reformation. In other ocassions it well migtht be pride that explains that. And most likely if you do what you plan to do, you well might end up creating your own denomination: The “It’s all about having fellowship with me, myself and I”
My experience has been that in the church, lack of true friendship. It is irritating and hurtful to me to receive phone calls from people trying to get me to come to church when I’m not there, yet these same people wouldn’t call me to grab a cup of coffee, or to go to a movie, or to go out to dinner.
The lack of community is disappointing. It is totally unlike the experience of the early Christians, who “ate together, and had everything in common.” I’m not for shared living arrangements or anything like that, but feeling totally unknown in my own church is very lonely.
Not only that, but being a loyal attender, and constantly hearing sermons about how we “need to get right with God”, need to live right, etc…..no matter how much we try, we will never be perfect - that’s why we have accepted God’s grace.
It seems like many churches aren’t t actively reaching people in their point of need - they are just waiting people to find them. No wonder the pews are emptying. It is very sad.
I have not read all of the other comments so if I repeat things that have been said already I am sorry.
I think people shy away from church because they don’t want to feel like they are being ju