I have a nagging question that will not go away:
How is it that so many Christians in the West willingly endorse the idea that the Gospel of Grace lay fallow for 1,000 years until “rediscovered” by the Reformation generation (Hus, Luther, Calvin), yet they find it incomprehensible that any other major component of God’s word might lie fallow longer and only find its rediscovery in our generation?
Yet that is what many Christians believe. It is as if the worldwide Church ceased to exist from 500-1500 A.D., flowered in the revelation of the Reformation, but has been on a deaf, downhill slide since. That belief also renders it impossible that our generation may experience any kind of renaissance in Christian spirituality.
I believe that this belief is the primary reason why so many people reject the charismata, not any Scriptural injunction, but an idea that, in essence, “it’ll never be better than Luther’s day.” Therefore, God will never choose to revitalize part of the True Faith during our day.
That’s too bad. It’s awfully presumptive as well.
Lakeland was a huge blow to the charismatic movement. And in a way, I thank God for it. Because it’s time for the foolishness to stop.
But it’s a logical fallacy to conclude that a charismatic reading of the Scriptures is wrong because some unhinged people claim to be charismatics. If one wanted to prove guilt by blanket condemnation, one would have to argue that the Holy Bible is not to be trusted because of the existence of The Book of Mormon or the New World Translation or any of the so-called “mystery books” or apocryphal writings that were supposedly “left out” of the Bible. And who now reading this believes that position?
It bothers me that so few people are able to look at catastrophes and meltdowns and glean anything from them other than polarizing positions. There never seems to be any middle ground, therefore the autopsy of the event thrusts people into starkly held positions. Positions which, when you get right down to it, end up not being the truth at all because prejudices get in the way of objective analysis.
But plenty of people want to dance on the grave of the charismatic movement. Me, I say, “Let ‘em.” Why? Because I don’t acknowledge that what is commonly called “The Charismatic Movement” by outsiders and critics defines the genuine expression of the Holy Spirit operating through charismata in the True Church today. That label is far too broad, so it winds up encompassing both legitimate and illegitimate expressions of the charismata. Critics then look at the invalid expressions and label the entirety corrupt.
No better example of this exists than Pentecostal and charismatic TV ministries. And here’s the rub: I suspect that they dominate the airwaves and present a much broader, polarizing picture of what is deemed charismatic than really exists. What gets put on the airwaves is the flash, the dog and pony shows, that represent the worst, not the best, of what is deemed charismatic or Pentecostal.
If aliens from beyond our galaxy were able to intercept television signals from Earth, yet the only show they could receive was Teletubbies, what kind of whacked-out interpretation of life here would they form? So it is with charismania on TV. It may make for a wild show, but it’s not reality.
You want to know what is the genuine reality for charismatic and Pentecostal churches today?
Whenever we talk about the persecuted church in the world, those churches most oppressed by dictatorial regimes, those churches are, in many cases, Pentecostal. 
The Chinese underground Church so revered here by high-minded Western Christians? Mostly Pentecostal or with a belief that the charismata exist today. In fact, if one were to look around the globe, the revivals we see in developing countries, the thousands coming to Christ in the “backwaters” of the globe, those new Christians are Pentecostals/charismatics. For the far greater part, they are NOT Presbyterians, Nazarenes, Methodists, Lutherans, Reformed, Brethren, Episcopalian, or any other denomination of that type.
This is not some kind of slam on those other denominations. It’s just an acknowledgment that it is easy to bash Pentecostals and charismatics with blanket statements that end up making all us Western Christians look foolish.
What is the common denominator between the televised dog and pony shows fronted by red-faced, Armani-wearing Branham devotees and the persecuted Chinese Church? Not a whole lot. At all. Yet far too many people want to mash them up and label them the same thing.
There’s a word for that: lazy.
So if anyone out there wants to dance on the grave of what was epitomized by Lakeland, be my guest. But be exceptionally careful where else you jig because you may very well be contributing to the persecution of genuine, faithful, humble Christians who just so happen to believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still for today.
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Dan,
As intrepid as the Reformers were, it is next to impossible to extricate oneself thoroughly from the groupspeak of their own generation. The reformers made great strides, but it seems to me, were incapable of imagining a spiritual world totally informed by and built upon the Word. All these years later, the Protestant church still stumbles about with their failure of imagination and the hangover of clinging to the remnants of an unscriptural tradition. The Pentecostal movement started with a return to the Word to answer the questions of what life in the Spirit should look like, without reference to tradition nor the theologians bound by it. Lo and behold, they began to experience the things found in the Word and long thought dead and irrelevant. I am more than happy to be amongst that camp, and for the life of me, cannot be to understand the opposition to it in much of the church.
slw,
Along with you, I get frustrated by the fossilized response. In some ways, some parts of the Church are guilty of the same mistake that Peter, James, and John committed when they wanted to setup camp on the mountain at the transfiguration. Except they’ve done it at the Reformation.
I grew up Lutheran. I love Lutheran theology. Most of my theology is still Lutheran at the core. But as much as I love what Luther did, I realize that Luther is not the pinnacle of the faith. Nor is the Reformation. Important? Heck yeah! But I’m not going to camp there. If anything, the Reformation is nothing more than a base camp for climbers who are pushing on toward the peak; it’s not the destination. Yet there are so many who get to the base camp and consider themselves home.
Pushing on toward the peak is less certain. It’s more dangerous. The comforts of base camp are not immediately present. The oddity in the Christian Church is that those who attempt the peak, instead of getting support from the base camp as should be the case, often find themselves ridiculed for the attempt.
And this is not a charismatic argument, either. I’m not going into the Christian/Christian+ argument because it’s stupid and pointless. I’m arguing in favor of anyone who believes that Christianity does not begin and end in the Reformation. Nor did the Reformers have the proper grip on it all, either. They were men, too. They had their failings and their inadequacies. God equips every generation for what it needs. That Pentecostals are the ones on the forefront of missions today, eclipsing some other denominations that in the past were at the head of the missionary push, shows God’s sovereign hand at work because He’s calling the people best equipped to meet the challenges of our age as opposed to some other age. That this has resulted in the largest number of people becoming believers in all of history should tell us all something.
Excellent metaphor! This comment would be an terrific post on it’s own merit.
The thing that puzzles me is how both Pentecostals and Charismatics (that is, thos Charismtics that are OTHER-than-the-Third-Wave-Toronto/Wagner-type) have seemed to sit on the sidelines and say absolutely nothing for the past 15 years of this movement. Every Pentecostal and legitimate Charismatic leader should have come out against this and showed the specific differences between the real deal and the false. They should have also done this with parts of the Pentecostal (yes, folks, they are Pentcostals, not Charismatics) Word of Faith teaching.
But things have been strangely silent in Pentecostal and the real-deal Charismaticland.
On another point, I disgree with you about going back to the Middle Ages. Too many today (3rd wavers and also emergents) are going back to that period for their abberrant doctrine and occultic infuences.
Why don’t we simply go back to the first century. You see plenty of “Pentecostalism/Charismaticism there.
IMO, most people tend to find a comfortable (comfortable for them) subset of Christianity after they come to saving faith. For some that subset is orthodox liturgy, for others it may be house groups, others charisma, etc. Many believers I know, including myself, don’t think we’re missing anything by not fixating on charisma. It has nothing to do with with Lakeland, Jan Crouch’s hair, or anything like that. It’s just that we are forgiven, we have joy and peace, and our own experience of belief is unfolding in other areas. We don’t condemn authentic charismatic expression – we simply don’t seek it.
I do agree with the comments of the other person who said the charismatic movement needs to do a better job of policing itself of the charlatans and weirdos like Bentley. Remaining silent in the face of these clowns destroys the credibility of the legitimate practitioners of charisma.
Dan:
I appreciate that in your writings here you have sought to encourage reform of the modern charismatic movement, and argue that the more visible, flamboyant charismatics, whose practices are obviously unbiblical, don’t represent the movement in its entirety and/or don’t represent what the movement ought to be.
Along these lines, you said,
Alex, interesting thoughts.
A couple of points here worth mentioning.
1) Re: your quote “This is where I think the Reformers had it right†“ Scripture can guide us in all these matters and is to be the objective measure of whether our spirituality is on target and pleasing to God.” Many, many believers who recieve the modern day operation of all the charismata (this blog’s owner included) do so based upon their honest reading of scripture. To them (and to me) scripture overwhelmingly supports this view, and only a very few passages treated with unhealthy does of convoluted logic and western rationalism would lead one to think otherwise.
2) Not all charismatics teach or believe that healing is in the atonement. Even if they did, your a priori rejection of this as an unbiblical doctrine is questionable, as this is one of those situations where there is good scripture on both sides to support either conclusion (in fact there may be more on the side of it’s in the atonement, I’ll refer to slw as the resident Pentecostal theologian of this blog to give his view on this, if he cares to).
3) Regardless of whether the theology and practice of Benny Hinn or Todd Bentley are seen as accurate or orthodox, the statement that no one is healed through their ministries is simply not true (based upon the “investigation” you referred to). I personally know people who have been healed through both of their ministries. The kind of healings that result in say, massive fibroid tumors disappearing overnight resulting in a previously barren woman giving birth to a child 9 months later. Stuff like that.
4) Lastly, it might not be to far off to state that Calvin was a “nutjob”, too–perhaps on a far more dangerous scale than any of the charismatic practioners of our day. Just ask anyone who dared to disagree with his theology at the height of his rule in Geneva. Gallows, anyone?
The point I’m making is that even the great saints of history were human sinners like us, and on the whole a mixed bag both morally and theologically. The miracle of God’s grace is that he has preserved a witness of salvation through the ages with very limited material to work with (namely, us humans).
Dan….. what a post! I couldn’t agree with you more, Bless you and may many take what you say to heart.
A large part of the problem is, I believe, that to many people get drawn into some group, denomination , church ,whatever , get indoctrinated, teachings etc and then at some point start reading scripture, but by this time the colored lenses are already in place and they “See through the glass darkly” and tend to read just to confirm what they already think instead of seeking discovery.
To share a bit of my own walk, Back in a previous life as an agnostic, with no real religious background, beginning to realize that there is more going on here than we can see, and experiencing the burning question ” Like what IS causing all this ? ” So I went on a quest, a search for the truth, started reading all I could get my hands on in the general genre of history/philosophy. this seemed to break down into two camps , there is no such thing as God and there is definitely a God. The former always ended up sounding as nonsense , the latter always came across as much more coherent. So I decided I might as well go to the horse’s mouth so to speak. I was a commercial fisherman at that time and as I prepared to head out to the fishing grounds one season I took all reading material off the boat, got a hold of a bible and resolved myself to read it from cover to cover. Took three months, boy what a weird blood thirsty book, and believe me when you are working twenty hours a day and sleep deprived, reading the prophets does strange things to your head.
Anyhow, all very interesting but I didn’t feel much wiser, so carry on I guess and about two years later I came to the point where I acknowledged to myself that knowing the truth had become more important to me than me being ‘right’, that lead me, in my workshop one day, to asking out loud to myself, ” What is the significance of this Jesus guy anyway”.
That lead to a week of strange events ending with a powerful encounter with the Holy Spirit , which preceded a three week period where I walked and talked with God ( the upside down world we live in was turned right side up, all my questions answered by recall with understanding of scripture ) and never felt my feet touch the ground, this culminated with the Lord presenting me with a choice, in a vision.
In this vision I’m standing, leaning on a fence, looking at a great big black bull standing a little ways off on a grassy knoll, beside it on the ground was a red cape. I felt the Lord saying ” You can camp where you are and all will be good or you can hop over the fence and pick up the cape ( put on the mantle and follow me )”
I dropped to my knees and prayed ” Yes but not by my strength but only by YOUR spirit ”
Only after all this did I get involved with a local fellowship, only to run into another newby having a similar experience as myself. Not knowing any better we started sharing with each other and mentoring ourselves and remained kind of out of sight and out of mind of those who would ” teach us ” and when we humbled ourselves and took the the lowly seat of the student we were given greater understanding than our teachers and were keenly aware of false doctrine and teachings
The point of all this is to say , one needs first the Holy Spirit, then Scripture, then teachings by man can take place
Another point I’d like to add regarding all the thinking ( Hi Diane ? )out there, re right way wrong way, this way that…etc…etc….
I was meditating one morning and asking the the Lord how to get the point across to a cousin of mine who is a Jehovah’s Witness when in came clearly ” Thinking is head stuff, it’s the heart that I judge ”
So our loving must outweigh our thinking, and our thinking always tempered with love, thank you and bless you Dan for continually demonstrating this
Hans
Hans,
Thanks for sharing your story.
I wouldn’t say in your case that the Holy Spirit came before the Scriptures. You had already read the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit was working in concert with that reading.
I think that one of the problems we have in the West is our compartmentalization of everything because we have Greek worldview, in essence. If we abandon the head in favor of the heart or vice versa, we are in error. God gave us both a head to think with and a heart to feel with. We need both functioning to the full extent. The mistakes come when we jettison thinking to go only with feeling or we spend all our time in our heads to the detriment of our hearts.
These either/or positions that some folks take really bother me. They are all or nothing, and God is not like that except in a very few rare instances. Being either/or all the time leads to factionalism and explains the ridiculous way in which Protestants have fragmented the Body into ever-tinier pieces. We can’t keep doing that.
Dan,
Yes in a technical sense the Scriptures came first, but there was no understanding , that did not come until after the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, during the three week period mentioned the Holy Spirit took me through my whole life to that point ( 42yrs ) showing how he had orchestrated everything from words spoken over me as an infant, to where my parents choose to live, experiences as a young adult and so on , so in that sense the Holy Spirit did come first.
Christians are way too quick to believe it all starts at the moment one ” invites Him in ” and divide the world into two camps those who have and those who haven’t .
One of the problems in Christendom is that we often become too focussed on Scripture being the only source, when in fact all in life teaches us and all of creation reveals Him. (I have had teachings through animals. Think about it, Man is the only creature thats in rebellion) How often do we run into truly spiritual people walking closer then we are yet totally discredit them because they they didn’t get where they are by our prescribed route ( another whole topic there )
Instead of thinking in terms of ‘ converting ‘ someone to ‘our way,’ we need to learn to recognize those that are walking in the way but don’t know it yet. Come alongside in love and be a living word, the fountain of living water, washing their feet , lead them to the understanding that there is no such thing as coincidence. The results are amazing
You are definitely correct regarding the either/or positions, when are Christians going to realize just how big and absolute our father is. He is in EVERYTHING ! Finding Him is in the subtle nuance’s , the details
Dan,
Just yesterday I was thinking about this very thing, how we tend to over-emphasize one area. Especially in the Pentecostal/Charismatic historical tendency to despise intellectual education in favor of feelings.
But the great commandment is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Heart: emotion/feelings.
Soul: the spiritual component of man, our moral agency
Mind: our intellect, reasoning faculties
Strength: our actions, good works
I’m going to try to develop this further in the near future.
Brian,
Good thoughts. Our whole being means all. Even those parts some wish to repress.
I have nothing to add. Thank you. Your posts never fail to prod, provoke, or strengthen my faith.
Thanks, Chris. I appreciate your readership. Keep the faith and practice it in beautiful and radical ways.
Hi Dan – just one correction – you are quite right in that the christianity that is growing in the Global South is very charismatic. However, sometimes it is actually linked to older denominations. In India – for instance – the CSI and CNI churches are growing, spirit filled and spirit led. The same is true of some of the Episcopal churches in Africa.
I remember a Bishop from India sitting at our table and talking enthusiastically about his deliverance ministry – I suspect that I wouldn’t have the same conversation with the average Bishop in the CofE or the ECUSA.
HI, I have just recently come out of the charismatic church and have formed a blogspot for other charismatics who have left but have continued in their faith to search for biblical truth. It can be very traumatic leaving and confusing for some. As long as we stick to the main message of Jesus Christ, that is the main thing. I will look further into your website. Very informative. Please can you forward any one who is ex charismatic to my blogspot if possible: http://discernment4truth.blogspot.com
Holy Laughter, holy bark, holy drunkard and etc. are not found in the book of Acts during the Pentecost. Some Charismatic churches might use the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. from the Old and New Testaments to support these movements. However, bear in mind that the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. are mentioned instead of the full phrase of holy laughter, holy bark and etc. What if these practices are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these practices are from the work of Holy Spirit has caused one to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and it would have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the wrong saying that these are the work of them. However, the Holy Spirit does not do it. One has indeed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by abusing the name of the Holy Spirit despite he does not do it. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgivable according to the New Testament.
DEFINITION OF BLASPHEMY IN HEBREWS/GREEK
blas’-fe-mi (blaphemia) in classical Greek and Hebrews means primarily †˜defamation’ or †˜evil-speaking’in general; †˜a word of evil omen’, hence, †˜impious, and irreverent speech against God’. The above is the extract pertaining to the meaning of blasphemy in Greek. Consider carefully about holy bark, holy laugher and etc. For instance, if these are not the work of Holy Spirit, the abusing the name of Holy Spirit by saying that these are the work of Holy Spirit is indeed delivery of irreverent speech against the Holy Spirit. For instance, if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these should be directed from the work of the Holy Spirit might have abused the name of the Holy Spirit and caused defamation of its name and one might have in turn grieved the Holy Spirit since these might not be the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit might be ended up to bear the name for the doer of holy bark, holy laugher and etc. What if it has grieved the Holy Spirit by insisting that these are the work of the Holy Spirit, our ignorance has ultimately caused the ultimate abusing and/or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
HEALINGS IN CONTEMPORARY CHARISMATIC CHURCHES
In miraculous healings among Charismatic churches today, we could easily spot out that many sick will fall down before the healers lay hands on them. However, many sick would remain unhealed after the rally despite they did fall down before the healers, i.e. Pastors that perform miraculous healings. God is definitely powerful and can heal all kinds of sicknesses. However, there is a deficiency in the healings in contemporary Charismatic world. What if the wonders are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the commenting to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit that it is he that does the work might have grieved the Holy Spirit in case if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit and it ends up that one has abused the name of the Holy Spirit and has ultimately blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
ALL BLASPHEMIES WHETHER TOWARDS THE HOLY SPIRIT OR GOD OR JESUS CHRIST ARE TO BE CONSIDERED AS SINS
Matthew 12:31-32, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the BLASPHEMY AGAINST the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speak against a word the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever SPEAK AGAINST the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. As the phrase, speak against the Holy Spirit, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, blasphemy against the Spirit, it implies that a person blasphemes against the Holy Spirit even if he speaks against the Holy Spirit. The same for abusing the name of the Holy Spirit in which it might have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the false saying what if the works are not from the Holy Spirit. The word, forgiven, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, every sin & blasphemy, it implies that all blasphemies are to be considered as sin or else why we should need God’s forgiveness for the blasphemies. The same in abusing God’s or Jesus’ name to support their miracles are from God or Jesus respectively and these are the acts of blasphemies to be considered as sins too.
THE WELL-KNOWN VERSES IN MATTHEW 7:21-23
Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to me, †˜Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, †˜Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, †˜I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!
What are the elements could be found in these verses above? There are:
1) They believe in Jesus Christ since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many will say to me..’LORD, LORD. These people must have believed in Jesus Christ or else how they could call Jesus Christ to be their Lord as mentioned above then.
2) These people could use Jesus’ name to perform miracles since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many…have..prophesied…in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?
3) Will they be accepted by Jesus Christ? Matthew 7:23, “…I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me.
THE PRIDE AMONG CONTEMPORARY CHURCHES FOR THEIR NON-REPENTANCE
This is my general discovery upon Charismatic churches: Some Charismatic churches might not repent in order to do away their so-called, gift, in the churches due to they feel thieir reputations are most precious than the truth of the Bible and that causes them to persist in the practice. However, bear in mind that the insisting the so-called, gift, in their churches to be the work of the Holy Spirit might cause them to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and that causes them ultimately to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what if the miracles are not from the work the Holy Spirit. The act of insisting to defend their reputation more important than the truth of the Bible has indeed violated the great commandment of the Lord. For Matthew 22:37, “(mentions that) Jesus said to him, †˜You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. The act of having a high preference for their reputations rather that upholding the truth of the Bible implies that his love towards his own reputation is more significance than his love towards God. For Matthew 22:37 has commanded us to put our love to God first instead of that has to be in replacement of our reputation.
LUKE 9:49-50 ABOUT THOSE THAT DO NOT FOLLOW JESUS BUT COULD PERFORM WONDERS IN JESUS’ NAME
Luke 9:49, 50 (TCNT), “Hereupon John said: “Sir, we saw a man driving out demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he does not follow you with us. “None of you must prevent him, Jesus said to John; “he who is not against you is for you.
Were these people that were mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 to be the disciples of Jesus since it is mentioned that they did not follow Jesus?
The following are the verses to prove that God’s people would surely follow Jesus:
John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:3, “To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by nam, and leadeth them out.
From the above verses, it is obvious that the sheep will surely follow the shepherd, Jesus.
As the phrase, he is not against you is for you, is mentioned in Luke 9:49 instead of the phrase, he is not against you is for me Jesus, it does not show that all these people that could use Jesus to perform miracles were for Jesus but for us, disciples, especially Jesus had mentioned clearly in John 10:27 and 10:3 that Christians would surely follow Jesus. The possible interpetation for Luk 9:49 for him to mention that they were for us that it might be that they could assist us in bringing outsiders to the attention of Jesus Christ for our evangelism. However, they are not for Jesus since they do not follow Jesus since they would definitely follow Jesus if they are for Jesus.
Indeed the people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 that could perform wonders in Jesus’s name were not God’s people or else Jesus should have included these people ont top of the twelve disciples. Or in other words, if these people that could perform wonders in Jesus’ name were God’s people, there would be more that twelve disciples instead of remaining to be twelve all the time during Jesus’ mission and it proves the fact that Jesus’ name could be abused to perform miracles. Or in other words, despite these people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 were not following Jesus and were not the disciples of Jesus, they could use Jesus’ name to perform wonders.
CASTING OUT DEMONS MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY CAUSE ONE TO HAVE DISTURBED BY DEMONS AS MENTIONED IN ACTS 19:13-16:
Matthew 17:15-16, “Lord have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Matthew 17:18-19, “And Jesus rebuked the devil and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, †˜Why could not we cast him out?’ Matthew 17:21, “Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. From these verses, it is obvious that the failure in casting out demons might not necessarily cause one to be disturbed by demons as that is mentioned in Luke 9:49-50.
PROOF THAT ANGELS COULD PERFORM MIRACULOUS HEALING AND THERE ARE FALLEN ANGELS TOO:
John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
From John 5:3-4, it shows that angels could heal various kinds of illnesses whether they are blinded, halt and withered. As angels could perform miraculous healings and there are so-called, fallen angels, it is irrational to jump into conclusion that certain illnesses be healed to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit since some wonders might be the work of angels and/or fallen angels.
One might have quoted Luke 9:49-50 well that nobody should stop those people that perform miracles in Jesus’ name. However, he should meditate Matthew 7:22-23 carefully again that the so-called people to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders might be rejected by the Lord. For instance, if these people that are mentioned in Matthew 7:22-23 to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders are the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, there should not be any strong ground for Jesus to reject them. However, Jesus will reject them despite they do perform wonders in Jesus’ name and there is a query the so-called wonders that they perform are from God. The following are the extracts:
Matthew 7:22-23, “Many will say to me in that day, †˜Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, †˜I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!’
Charismatic people say that they believe in Jesus Christ. However, they depend mostly on their emotions; their sights of miracles; and whatever they could visualize from their sights. Whenever they feel and see the existence of some forms of power and they say that there is God. When they could not see any miracles or wonders or their emotions are down, they say that God is not with them. They claim that they receive the Holy Spirit due to they say that they feel something passing through their bodies. All in all they claim that they are saved and yet all these are done through feelings. Their salvations are in doubt and they might not be saved since salvation is through faith and not feeling. What good does it bring about if the number of Charismatic churches has been expanding! Many are non-Christians and a few are true Christians. Now the underlying problem is we, the true Church, must be strengthened in Biblical knowledge and not to be affected by false teachings.
Sad to say they are blinded by evil forces. No doubt they might be rejected by the Lord as mentioned in Matthew 7:22-23 for their foolishness of hearts.
Jonathan,
As an example of what you are doing, I will use the same profoundly flawed reasoning to make a similar error-filled statement: “{The kind of people Johnathan agrees with spiritually} say they believe in Jesus Christ. However, they depend mostly on their intellects, their systematic systematic theologies, and whatever they are told to think by their leaders. Whenever they think and rationalize the existence of some forms of power, they conclude that because they have not experienced them in their own churches, they no longer exists. They say that the Holy Spirit is only experienced in wise sayings and a strong sermon. They say they are saved, but because they so thoroughly live in their intellects, they have no understand of the God’s deep and abiding emotional life, the same life He gives His true children. As a result, such people can pass by those who have been wounded emotionally by those who have done them grievous harm and show those poor souls no compassion. They are the elder brother who looks down on the prodigal, unaware of the father’s forgiveness and love, and so they miss genuine salvation. They have not love, and have been reduced to a clanging cymbal.”
Jonathan, I have privately warned you in the past. I am publicly warning you now.
Glad to receive your reply. Don’t be mistaken by I am not a person that likes to receive praise from men but instead, I welcome criticism and bad comments.
I never mention in the above comments that the special gifts of the Holy Spirit have been ceased.
However, I mention that what if the so-called, gifts of the Holy Spirit, in the contemporary Charismatic Churches are not from God and yet we insist that they are from the Holy Spirit or God or Jesus Christ, we indirectly speak against the Holy Spirit or God or Jesus Christ. As you have mentioned that the so-called, gifts of the Holy Spirit, in contemporary Charismatic Churches is from God, you would have strongest proves that they are from God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit to show us so that all, Christians, would acknowledge of the existence in contemporary Charismatic Churches. For instance, if you would provide strong proves it to be true, we, Christians, have to comment that they are indeed from God. However, if you could not prove whether they are from God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, we, Christians, that announce that the so-called, gifts of the Holy Spirit, are from God would indirectly cause us to commit continual sin against God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit by abusing its name in case if all the so-called, gifts, in contemporary Charismatic Churches are not from God.
I speak with right conscience and urnestly seek your precious opinion since you might be in Charsimatic Churches for long so as to convince us, being an ignorance, could not appreciate if these so-called, gifts, are really from the work of the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit.
However, if we, Christians, could not receive any strong proves whether they are really from the Holy Spirit or from Jesus Christ or from God, we apologize that we could not declare that they are from God or from Jesus Christ or from the Holy Spirit due to we do not want to abuse the name of God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit.
You have used your personal experience in replacement of the Holy Scripture and that should not be the case.
Faith is the substance of hope of what is unseen and/or what would have occurred in the future. However, in Charismatic Churches, they depend on feeling that opposes the principality of faith.
Jonathan,
You have put yourself into an untenable position:
1. You acknowledge that the gifts of the Spirit as mentioned in the Bible are legitimate and have not ceased.
2. You then say that for a gift to truly come from God, it must be discerned as being from Him.
3. Yet you also say that it is not possible to tell definitively whether a charismatic gift comes from God or not. And then you add that unless that is known perfectly, a person will be damned for blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.
You and I agree on #1 and #2. We do not agree on #3. In fact, the way you argue #3 renders #1 moot. The charismata become gifts that no one can use because it can never be determined whether they come from God or not.
Oddly enough, the early Church was able to deal with this in such a way that they could determine real from false gifts. Nor did they shy away from such determinations.
But you close the gifts down altogether because you say that the risk for making that determination is too chancy. In short, from your position, they may as well never have existed at all! Aren’t you telling God that He doesn’t know what He is doing when He gives these gifts to men?
BTW, Jonathan, I lay out some simple, Biblical tests for determining the veracity of charismatic gifts in “Charismatic Churches and the Cult of the New“.
I do not mention that God’s wonders have been ended for the following reasons:
a) In time to come all Christians will be raptured and many would come out of their coffins to be resurrected. Don’t we, Christians, acknowledge that God’s wonder never ends.
b) The sun in the sky is burning many many years and don’t we, Christians, acknowledge God’s wonder never cease.
c) Water keeps on evaporation without ceasing and that brings rain for human beings and this shows God’s wonder in heaven.
d) Every child that is born on this earth will be given his/her own spirit and indeed this is God’s wonder again.
e) There are many other wonders too.
From the above, we, Christians, could not deny that God continues his wonders on earth.
However, we, Christians, do not know whether the wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God. We earnestly seek your opinion and experience for the proves that wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God so that we, Christians, might acknowledge them.
Alexander,
I always find it curious when someone takes the position against the gifts and against healing by appealing to the Scriptures (which are loaded with evidence against cessation and for healing), then backing up their position by appealing to experience, something they’ll reject in anyone who is pro-charismatic. It’s quite the delicate dance.
Jesus said plain as day that we will do the works He did and greater works at that. Yet Jesus Himself could do no miracles save for a few healings in his hometown because people despised him as being some hayseed local boy. Nothing better describes the situation in the rational West than that.
If we construct elaborate dismissals of what is clear in Scripture, then God will give us the fruits of our unbelief. And the Scripture is clear. A.W. Tozer said that no one who comes with an open heart to the Scriptures leaves a cessationist. Most people who are cessationists have had that drilled into them by their denominational slant. End of story.
In the backwaters of the world, there are people who are leading others to Christ in part because those Christians are meeting the widespread need of poor people for physical healing. Those itinerant preachers don’t walk into a village with a message they can’t back up in a very real way. Just as they did in the Bible, people are far more ready to hear the Gospel when they experience the power of God in a real way than not. And that includes healing. People ARE healed because those preachers BELIEVE that they will be because they know the power of God works today and do not doubt it for a second. Entire households and villages turn to Christ as a result. (Sound familiar? Sounds like Acts, doesn’t it?)
But when we dismiss such possibilities with our Western thinking, we become like the people in Jesus’ hometown who despised Him. And He could do no miracles. Fact is, even those of us who are Christians readily dismiss the miraculous in daily life because we deem it irrational or antiquated. We become doubleminded, like James says, and we should expect nothing in return. That’s a travesty. So of course we don’t see it as much. We’ve made its lack a self-fulfilling prophecy!
I don’t support Word-Faith teachings. But there is one reality of their teachings that I do support: They don’t excuse faithlessness masked as rational intellectualism. Too many of us do.
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