David Wayne over at Jollyblogger takes Tom Cruise to task for trashing Matt Lauer in a discussion on the merits of psychology as a real science. Scientologist Cruise—he of the belief that evil space aliens control our minds—labeled psychology a “pseudo-science” and there was much rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth as a result.
I’m no apologist for Scientology or for Tom Cruise, but he’s right in one thing: psychology IS a pseudo-science. And Christians have swallowed and subsumed that pseudo-science to the point that it is wrecking the North American Church from the inside out.
Psychology and psychiatry are rooted in the exaltation of the Self. This is clearly at odds with the Gospel. Psychology and psychiatry possess a worldview of their own that conflicts with the truth claims of Scripture time and again.
If ever there was correct labeling of anything as a “pseudo-science,” psychology merits that label.
Dan – I’m no real defender of psychology or psychiatry although I think there are some valid things to learn from some of them. I was just saying that Cruise calling psychiatry a pseudo science is an extreme case of the pot calling the kettle black.
I have to agree with David here. The reaction of the secular world is predictable — they worship at the altar of (pop) pyschology. But Cruise is wholly deceived by his own “faith,” and in no way can I find myself aligning with him.
I also have to add there are some outstanding Christian counselors and psychologists who understand their place in the Kingdom and are doing some great work for the Kingdom in people who have been abandoned by ministries who don’t know how to help them.
Amen, gaddabout! I wish just one single Christian had reached out to my husband before he committed suicide 7 years ago.
Dan, on what evidence do you base your conclusion that psychology is a pseudo-science? You have given very vague generalizations, but no detail. [and to reveal a bit of my own bias… I take this issue psychologist by psychologist; I happen to know a number of psychologists who have a very biblical understanding of the soul and it is upon that understanding that they practice and teach psychology.]
David,
No doubt! But just because Cruise is a crackpot doesn’t mean that he didn’t nail pyschology dead center. I have a deep concern that the pseudo-science of psychology is eating the Church from the inside out. I think we need to take shots at it the same way that Creationists take shots at Darwinism.
Gaddabout,
The Church is just as much under the spell of psychology as the secular world is. The whole seeker-sensitivity arm of the Church is completely flooded with psychobabble and Human Potential Movement “Newspeak.” We’ve got to start rooting out that cancer.
Jennifer,
I am truly brokenhearted over your situation. You are absolutely right; Christians should have reached out to your husband. That they did not is chastening to us.
Laura,
I believe that true science reflects the realities of God’s creation. The problem with psychology is that much of it contradicts the Bible and what the Bible says about the nature of Man, particularly in the solutions that psychology offers. Like I said, psychology and Christianity are two opposing worldviews. There is no cross of Christ in psychology.
Scratch many Christian therapists and you find a secular theorist lurking underneath. But that’s not the way God intended Man to find answers. Secular theorists do not have answers to the deep need of Man—only God does. I am disturbed that many Christian therapists try to shoehorn these two disparate worldviews into one practice. The result has been the schizophrenic nature of so many believers today, who have learned to equate Jung with Jesus. We simply can’t do that. There is some greater than Maslow here.
I have to stand behind Dan 110%, does any true hearted Christian think that Paul would have prescribed a “Christian” psychologist to any person he came in contact with. What was Paul’s answer to every situation in life, the Gospel.
God has ordained help to mankind through the preaching of the Gospel, which tells of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ. Outside this (the Gospel of Jesus Christ) there is nothing, and that is where psychology stands.
Dan, thanks for standing so firm, this is what we need. If we don’t begin to make deliberate stands against this world and it’s infiltration into Christianity, will this generation ever truly see Christ in us?
Psalm 1:1-3, “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper”
If psychology is not “the counsel of the ungodly” then what is??? I prefer to let the Lord plant and tend to me, besides, is he not refered to as “Counsellor” (see Isa. 9:6). If more time was spent in communion with God, less time would be needed in counseling with man.
Dan:
You are so right and books have been written that support your assertion. Those who question your stance or its foundation would do well to read:
Philip Rieff’s “Triumph of the Therapeutic”;
Paul Vitz’ “Psychology as Religion”; and the newly published “One Nation under Therapy” by Sommers and Satel.
Keep up the good work and continue to poke around various hornets’ nests.
Yours in Him,
Derek Simmons
Dan, we, apparently, must agree to disagree. Yes, most psychology is a warped, godless view. We agree there. The psychologists I know study God’s creation—the soul—and use the tools of psychology to bring people to God. They are much like the preacher of Proverbs who studied creation to learn about God from general revelation. Psychology is the application of wisdom—a God-given faculty of the human mind—to an understanding of the soul.
We do need to look to Scripture, absolutely, but this does not negate the need for intelligent, wise investigation of God’s creation to the end of healing.
Dan,
First, we are in agreement with the “human potential” garbage being passed off as the Gospel. I’ll stand with you as we root it out together.
However, as someone who was once charged attempting to minister to a bi-polar sufferer, there are some people who need the *science* of psychology. I’ve also known many, many sexually abused who simply did not respond to any kind of traditional ministry. However, as a Christian counselor worked with them through it, they’ve been emotionally redeemed.
Matt,
You know I respect and love you, but I have to disagree here. Psychology at it’s very basic principles states, “Man’s solution to man’s problem is man.” “Christian” psychology is no different than humanistic or secular psychology, it just wraps it’s terminologies (if that’s a word) in biblical words (sort of like new age, purpose driven stuff).
Here is what sets the captives free, and God has ordained that this is to be done by the “foolishness of preaching”:
Luke 4:18, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised…”
All of us have had expirienced things that seem to work, but a sinner that comes to Christ like on the day of Pentecost. Who truly recieves the new birth, does not need counseling, I fear that the reason that there is such a need for counseling is because we are trying to “church” the unsaved. Many may disagree, but the bible teaches that if a person says that he knows Christ but does not keep His commmandments, that person is a liar. If each person would live as Christ intended for them to live, i.e. constant communion with the Lord through prayer and meditation/study on the word, then the active and present Spirit of God would be in that person’s life to minister healing and love that only Christ can give.
And something else; the sad thing is that there doesn’t seem to be men that stands in the gap anymore, anointed with fire and the Holy Ghost, that is setting captives free by Holy Ghost anointed preaching. May the Lord give us such men, that we may see and know, and not just hear.
Rick, as said above, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. I agree in principle that pyschology is a man-made thing with inferior man-made constructs. However, I do believe God can use Christian psychiatrists and counselors to help people receive emotional healing the way God can use doctors to help someone receive physical healing.
I used to think as you do until I witnessed it first hand. Through Christian counseling, I’ve seen people awash in their own bitterness confront childhood trauma they could not reconcile at the time. Once confronted, I’ve seen people forgive people who’ve violated them with the most treacherous crimes against them. The Bible is centerpoint, God is the focus, and the fruit is there.
Matt, Laura, et al.,
First of all, let me admit that I know my view is not popular—even within my own household. Feel free to disagree!
I will grant you that some aspects of psychology may help those people who suffer from truly organic mental issues. It has an element that does correspond with traditional medicine.
I guess my biggest complaint concerns the part of psychology that is speculative and encompasses the worldview issues I discussed. I have long believed most of the mental issues that psychologists treat in the general public are the cumulative effect of pervasive sin. And we know from Prov. 23:7 that as a man thinks, so he is. We also know that the brain’s structure actually rewires and sets itself through habitual thinking, so the effects of sin actually have a physical action on it. I have to believe that what sin corrupts, the Lord can set right again—even a physically hardcoded brain.
And now back to your regularly scheduled blog….
Dan, I think that Tom Cruise is miss-lead and I beleive that Psycholgy in a sense is bunk, when not put into a Christian perspective. I agree that some things are psychological (mental), but just as science plays a part in Christianity, so does Psychology, which is medicine and science and mental. Personally I feel that you are tackling a subject that you know very little of. I am a psych major and I am a Christian counselor. I think that sin has very little to do with it, and you are not bring in the word GRACE which is at the heart of Christianity. Even if their sin has caused their problem, how dare you cast the 1st stone! They should be treated, cared for and told about how much God loves them! Just as you would someone with a heart defect, which again, could be the result of sin! Shame on YOU!
(This is my last comment on this post, Lord willing 🙂 )
Teresa you need to read “Pilgrims Progress” and “Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God” by Jonathan Edwards. I’m afraid you also need to read the bible. Do you realize what Christ had to do to pay the requirments of our sin, do you realize how he was beaten, mocked, and shamed? And do you know why that was? Because we are a bunch of wicked, evil, monsters that hate God. You can hippie-hug ’em in if you want, but when the going gets tough they’ll fall away.
Man do I ever long for a man of God to stand up in this generation and warn people to flee from the wrath to come! (While preaching against sin and worldliness!)
Keep it up Dan!!!
The word psychology comes from the Koine Greek Word “Psukas” which means soul, and the “ology” part means “study of”. So psychology means “study of the soul”. According to the Word of God, God breathed the breath of life, and man became a “Living Soul”. The soul of man is eternal. Traditional medicine deals only with the temporal. To confuse that which is eternal with that which is temporal results in what the church has in it today, spiritual dummy’s. For a person to believe that the needs of the eternal soul can be met by sinful mankind is akin to blasphemy against Almighty-God. When the Crown of thorns was placed upon the head of the Lord Jesus Christ, this was God showing the people which have eyes to see, that the spotless, sinless Lamb of God took upon Himself our unrighteousness; not only for the removal of sin, but for our soul and our mind also. Jesus came to Heal the brokenhearted…to set at liberty them that are bruised. He done this by giving himself for us, because the Spirit of the Lord was upon Him. As for casting stones I ask, Was it a sin for John the Baptist to tell Herod that he was an adulterer? NO! Whoever that woman was that said that Bro. Dan was throwing stones, needs to go and actually open her eyes when she reads her Bible. Perhaps this is why the scripture says that women are to be silent in the Church.
As for Tom Cruise, I could care less what he says, I’m only concerned with What I have to live by, “Every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God”.
“I have found out that Psychology does not have the answers for man” -Dr. Dobson.
We all know that Psychology does not have the answers, because they treat the symptoms, not the source of the problem. Why do we want to study the soul? What don’t we know about it from the word? Is the soul of men good? “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile a man…” [Matt 15:19-20]
What corrupted man’s heart? [Gen 2:17] Sin. What’s the answer to sin? [2 Cor. 5:17 5:17] Jesus. Can the world add to it to help?
“You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity toward God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” James 4:4
Are we trying to buddy up to the worldly system or what? Is Christ all we need for healing or isn’t He? Is He and His grace sufficient, or should we search for another? “And He said unto me ‘My grace is sufficient'”.
Since the source of all man’s problems is sin, and only Christ is the solution to the sin problem, then Psychology can’t help the problem. Psychology can only probe around the symptoms and give frail, failling “treatments.” etc. I think we would all agree that it would be arrogant to assume that manking didn’t have the same kind of mental problems back in Jesus days that we have today. Suicide, murder, hate, etc.
But Jesus sent the 12 out with POWER, not with Psychology. And it worked. Jesus didn’t perscribe Psychology, He prescribed “prayer and fasting…”
Example: A man sits down with the apostle John seeking help with a heart/soul/mental problem. Let’s listen in…
Ina eed help: John! I’ve finally found you! I need help.
John: Tell me what your problem is.
Ina: I hate my brother so badly because he wronged me as a child. I just can’t forgive him. Can you “councel” me, or prescribe a good Psychologist you know that could help me?
John: Psychologist?…oh, a person who studies the soul? No,no,no, I can’t do that.
Ina: Why not?
John: That’s not the answer to your problem. Why would you want someone who studies the soul? Wouldn’t you rather have someone who can fix it?
Ina: But I can’t stop hating, I can’t forgive!
John: The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness had blinded his eyes.
If I said this to some of you, you would tell me I needed Psychological training myself for “casting the 1st stone.”
We get accused for “casting stones” when we proclaim the truth. It takes quite a foolish person to say such a thing in knowledge of the prophets proclaiming repentance and naming sins all throughout the Bible.
Teresa, take it in context instead of eisegeting [inserting] your opinion into the scriptures.
If a Psychologist ever helps, its because he/she pointed the person to the answer: Christ.
All else is error, pretending to treat the source which it cannot.
“Christian Psychologist” is an oxymoron. You can’t have the worlds answer for man, and God’s since they contradict.
“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.” 1 John 5:4
“My little children, love not the world, neither the things in the world…Little children, guard yourselves from IDOLS.”
One last thing.
I’d like to submit an example of God’s answer for soul/mental problems in Holy Spirit power. My Dad went down to Columbus, Ohio awhile back for a meeting. During the meeting, the main speaker asked all the evangelists in the audience to come up and help pray for people. My Dad went up. As Dad was up there, he said to a friend that went with him, “Jim, I think God has done something for her” looking down at a young lady praying. The Spirit told my Dad to go over to her. Now the pulpit was built high, and made Dad uncomfortable to be so “high up over them” as he puts it. So he got down to pray with this particular woman on his stomach (the pulpit was literally that high from the ground). And as Dad was praying for her, God started giving my Dad the things to say to her: the word of knowledge. Dad started naming specific abuses she had been through, and the pain, and the drugs, etc. She probably thought Dad knew all about her, but God only gave those things to her and told her that God has seen it all. She looked up at him with the tears running down her face and said, “Everything you’ve said is TRUE!” They started praying again. And with tears she prayed through and forgave her abusers. In a minute her aunt started pushing through the crowd yelling, “That’s my neise (Hope I spelled that right =D)!” Then the mother came pushing through also, saying with tears, “That’s my daughter!” And before the night was through, that young lady forgave her abusers because the Spirit convicted her, touched her, and gave her the grace to do that.
That’s Luke 4:18 in action. I hope we see more of that. I fear more and more that people will follow the worldly system like Teresa has, and learn to trust in books of Psychology with a blinded understanding, rather than in the power of the Spirit of Christ, Rom. 1:22.
While “Christian” Psychologists may study the soul sincerely, that does not make their humanistic answers (If and when they give them) sincerely true. Rather, it means that wrong can be persued by sincerely wrong people. Remember, evolutionists claim to study science also. But understand, just because they say they study science doesn’t mean they actually do. (Evolustionists study apologetics. I.e., how to defend the religion of evolution). But if you want to know about science/creation go to the Bible. And likewise if you want to know about the soul, again, go the the Word of God (if you trust in IT more that “educated” men in college textbooks Rom. 1:22).
“Lord, send us revival without the defects. But Lord, if we can’t have revival without the defects, then send us revival WITH the defects. WE MUST HAVE REVIVAL”
—Bro. Leonard Ravenhill
I am a Christian and a psychiatrist. Psychiatry is a medical discipline…the physicality of the body does not end at the neck or the skull. Anything that can affect your blood, hormones, metabolism, etc. affects your brain…since the same blood circulates throughout the body.
Is there a degree of “art” or “skill” associated with psychiatry? Of course. But any good doctor in ANY speciality develops their ways of approaching, diagnosing and treating symptoms.
Psychology and different schools of therapy are a very different topic. Psychiatrists learn most about therapy by being assigned cases and working them out…not a lot of theory, as PhDs study.
When someone has high blood pressure, we don’t consider them less Christian or less faithful because they take their medication and follow the doctor’s recommendations. We shouldn’t do it for those with seriously debilitating mental illness either.
Are there quacks? Yes…in every speciality. Are meds overprescribed or mismanaged? Yes…there are different levels of competency in every specialty.
The bottom line is that unless someone is an imminent threat to harm themselves, someone else or is considered gravely disabled (unable to meet their basic needs), people cannot be medicated against their will. If you don’t want your child on medication, don’t fill the prescription.
I don’t prescribe medication to every patient I see. My goal is to help each child maximize the chances of them meeting their full potential. I do a great deal of education about how to get children assessed through the schools, informing parents of the child’s rights and how to access them. I have diagrams on the walls, handouts on the disorders, etc. I don’t just sprinkle ritalin on anything that doesn’t sit still.
As with much of medical services, it is the burden of the patient or parents to check out different doctors, ask questions, ask other parents if they know of good doctors, etc.
Last comment, Lord willing.
Many times in Matthew, over and over it tells of how Jesus healed the crazy, the lunatics, and the paralytics. The diciples were given the same power when sent out, so much that they came back rejoicing. If a mentally stable person is simply having problems of hate,unforgiveness,anger,lust etc. etc. etc. The answer is found in the book of Romans. Victory over the flesh is in Christ. The sin nature’s power is brought to nothing in Christ, and faith in that fact will then allow the Spirit to give you victory as you reckon yourself dead to sin. As far as severe mental problems, if we were all like we should be with God, maybe we would be used of God to pray for these people and God would heal them as He gave such power to the disciples. If a person wants to be healed, and we have the authority in Christ to lay hands on the sick and “they shall recover”, and Jesus is willing to heal, then why is there a need for so much other treatments? I don’t think there should be. Biblically, we should be fulfilling the call for Spiritual salvation as well as physical health when possible. If we were as close to the Lord as we should be, would we have need for such treatments for the sick? It’s an important subject to think about.
�The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them… For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices�mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law�justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'”
Matthew 23:1-37
Father in Heaven, shut the mouths of these men up tight so that they can no longer be a hinderance to your work. Thank you for sending us Jesus Christ, the knower and healer of all things, in whom we find grace. Open the darkness of their minds to your truth, by which we are set free. More than anything, Father, let us be lights in this evil world, so we may bring others to You. Amen.
Thank You Jennifer and thank You to my Lord and Savior for His death for Me and for You. Lord help those who take the SCRIPTURE before the WORD OF GOD which is JESUS FLESH AND BLOOD! Your relationship is lacking behind your knowledge! God gave us brains to think and you are not using yours! Jesus still heals and can heal whoever he wants and in the Bible he used many different methods which some may beconsidered medicine: mud, spittle… Don’t pretend to BE GOD or so spiritual that you know everything of God or HOW HE is to do anything! God please forgive me for my righteous anger at those who do not see. I never said that sin cannot cause illness of ANY KIND, but we cannot asume that. I suggest that you read the book of JOB. His friends assumed that all of this was happenning to him because of his sin—NOT! And how DARE you tell me to read my Bible, I know my Bible and it contains WORDS from GOD, but JESUS Christ, the person of God, IS the WORD of God—maybe you need to get to KNOW HIM instead of books and words!
Let me clear something up for ya.
I do NOT believe illness is always caused by the ill’s sin. But sin IS the source. If you would have taken the time to read what was said instead of working yourself up into a furry maybe you would have caught this. So if one needs help with a mental sin (Hate, unforgivness, lust etc.) Jesus is the answer. Not pills, or mental games and modern Psychological questions. Psychology at its base does not promote Jesus the way the Bible does. So you must pick one over the other.
You stated: “Jesus still heals and can heal whoever he wants and in the Bible he used many different methods which some may be condidered medicine: mud, spittle…Don’t pretend do BE GOD or so spiritual that you know everything of God or HOW HE is to do anything!”
When Jesus touched the man’s eyes with mud and spit, do you think it was the mud that healed him? Jesus healed him, the mud and spit did not heal him. The next time you see someone with eye trouble, just go over and spit in their eyes then if you believe that. I didn’t call myself more spiritual, or God. You’re just making cheap shots to defend yourself no matter how unbiblical. I understand your desperation, but lies aren’t pleasing to God (Rev 21:8). Tell me teresa, when you read JOB, did you recall if his friends used Psycho annalysis to pin point his problem? Did a Psychologist speak out of the whirlewind, or did God? I don’t claim that Job sinned. Nevertheless, sin caused Job’s problems. If Adam would not have sinned we would have no death or pain for Job to have went through would we have? And Jesus is the answer to sin is He not? Job found fulfillment in God’s salvation, not Psychology. Think about it.
I know physical healing is NOT always accomplished by God through a miracle. But we are still waiting for the salvation/redemption of our bodies, but our souls (Greek: Psukas for Psyco-logy) has received salvation from sins penalty and destruction already (Rom. 8:23). You accuse me of acting superspiritual, and playing GOD because why? I use scripture to support what I’m saying? I’m not superspiritual, but if you find yourself contending with God’s word, is that my problem? Wake up.
Hope you actually start to understand what I’m saying here, instead of trying to defend yourself at all costs.
Gerry
Jennifer, I’ll post what I replied with when you posted this at TTIDT blog.
Sadly, even the devil can quote good scriptures (matt 4), and is not limited from moving upon believers to speak for him (matt 16:23). Its a shame that people don’t realize that the Pharisees did not obey the things they taught. That’s what the above verse you quoted speaks about Jennifer. But I inform people not to go to Psychologists, AND I DON’T GO MYSELF. Unlike what the above says that the Pharisees were doing. Perhaps you wrote the above because we are judgeing the fruit of Psychology? Does this anger you? So we should not judge right and wrong? Here’s a scripture for you.
“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.” Matt 7:16-17
When the Bible says we are not to judge, it is not speaking of decision making, but rather punishments. We have no right to punish our fellow-servants. But confronting false doctrine is another story, something all believers must do. I’m sorry if my non-conformist attitude offends you. It was not intended to. But I’d rather conform to the word of God, instead of attempting to twist it to my advantage.
Jennifer, let me ask you a question. Aren’t you judging bro. Rick by saying that he’s wrong? Are you not judging me by saying that he is a Pharisee? What’s the difference from what you are accusing me of, and what you yourself are doing? How are you right, and not me? Here’s the difference, you don’t agree, Period. So all of a sudden scripture agree’s with you? We have it the other way around. We’de better line up with scripture.
You wrote: “Father in Heaven, shut the mouths of these men up tight so that they can no longer be a hinderance to your work. Thank you for sending us Jesus Christ, the knower and healer of all things, in whom we find grace.”
I’d like to know, which father were you praying to? God doesn’t contradict his own words (1Cor 14:33). Sorry. I find it ironic that you said, “Thank you for sending us Jesus Christ, the knower and healer of ALL THINGS, IN WHOMWE FIND GRACE.” Not Psychology also? Just Jesus? Then what’s the problem? We obviously agree. “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.” Acts 7:51 We can all use scripture out of context to say something.
Lord, thank you that I am found worthy to suffer at the hands of the ones I call brothers/sisters. As you was wounded in the house of Your friends, so I expect no different treatment. For if they treat the master with contempt, I know that they will treat the servant likewise. But Lord, I do thank you that your word is true despite my co-servants unbiblical claims. Open the eyes of their understanding and cause them to see their mass sway to popular opinion instead of your word. I praise you Jesus that though the spirit of antichrist is prevelent in all the world, form the most heinous to the most innocent appearing, yet you will come again and restore all things in righteousness. Keep us through the coming great tribulation, and burn off the dross of ignorance by your fire and purify us as a refiner purify’s gold in a furnace. Even so, come in the fullness of your kingdom Lord Jesus. In the authority of Christ we pray. Amen.
People, I pray that with sincerity. Jennifer, you can pray that the message I’m proclaiming would be silenced, but be careful! You’ll find yourself contending with God. And we know who will win out.
“He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be an abomination.” Pro. 28:9
So here I stand, do your worst.
PS
Teresa, I said, “If WE were as close to the Lord as we should be…” I included myself, meaning that I do not consider myself to be more superspiritual. Something you were quick to accuse me of.
(1Cor 13:5; Rev. 12:10). Nevertheless, I’ve seen a lot of miraculous healings and such. Even a couple people who were raised from the dead. If we want to see what the early church saw we need to pray, get close to God, walk in His Spirit and power, and seek God’s face for revival. That’s what I meant from the above. I’ve seen the move of God, and it’s all of Jesus, none of me.
Thank God it’s not of you! You’ve seen people raised from the dead???? WHO????? WHERE?????? I want to see them. You really are making a fool of not only yourself, but your Lord as well. Carry on, boys, with your game. I’m off to show others the way to Jesus.
For one a man named David if I remember right. We have a VHS telling everyone what happened to him. Another man I know, and most of Spaulding road church of God in Dayton Ohio. Go check out Spaulding road church of God in Dayton Ohio on the internet, and ask Jason about a man named JOHN COUCH. We’ve been going from church to church telling this story for years. Bro. Couch was sick one day. They took him to the doctors and the doctors said that he just has a migrain headache. They sent him home. But he really had a brain tumor. He died that very day. They called the pastor to rush to the Hospital and meet him there. When the Pastor came in, he was already dead. He said, “Can I at least go where he is laying?” The nurse said the pastor could, but because they were prepping him in a body bag that it would be a few minutes. Later the Pastor walked back. Bro. Couch left behind a wife and 3 children. The Pastor put his hands on the bag in grief and said, “God, we need a miracle” That’s all he said. But instantly he “felt the bag start to move.” He said it scared him! This man was dead, brain dead, not life, prepped and in a body bag. But that day brother couch went home resurrected from the dead with his family. When my Dad was again telling this story to the people at Spaulding Rd. Church of God, a man got up in the middle of the congregation and said, “I know what you’re saying is true, because I was there the day it happened.” Needless to say, we had a good service that day.
You should also read about a woman named “grenche” who was raised from the dead by H. B. Garlock. You can read about it in a book called, “Before we kill and eat you.” This happened back in the early 1900’s, when he and his wife were doing missionary work over in Africa.
I make a fool of myself because God raises the dead? How my dear will you then accept that God will raise ALL the dead one day at the resurrection? You must not believe in the word when it says there will be a resurrection, or you must not believe God is still the same God who rose Lazarus from the dead, and that HE is still able. Or maybe, your god can’t raise anyone from the dead, but the true heavely Father can. Don’t limit God. Your not God, so don’t act like you can speak for him and call his children foolish for testifying to the power of God. Please, by all means, Rick can give you the exact internet address site to Spaulding rd. church of God. Jason is the moderator. I know brother Jason personally. Ask him if what I say is true, if you have the gutts.
You obviously don’t believe God can do these things, if you did, you would not have called me foolish for bearing witness to them. God is God!!!
If you would also study the life of one Smith Wigglesworth, you will find that there are 28 documented cases from America, to England of the resurrections that took place via, God using this man.
Who are you? Who are you to limit God? This is why we need revival in the land. We have people going around destroying people’s faith in God, and therefore people don’t see the miracles we could because we don’t believe God! I’m not trying to be rude, but bro. Rick was right. You really do need to read the Bible. And believe it when you read of the resurrection power of God also. Then, maybe you may have some understaning, and wisdom, and authority to speak.
“Martha said to Him, “I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.” Jesus said to her, “I AM the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
“And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
John 11:24-25; 43-44
But at least now you’re not using four letter words to revile us as you were on ttidt BLOG.
Jennifer, “I’m off to show others the way to Jesus”? Not Psychology?
I hope you are.
You were right to mention “original sin” in this. I beleive that we’ve all been a little misunderstood here. I don’t have time or space for the subject that, that brings up, but will maybe touch on that on my blog someday, or maybe my husband will on From the Outhouse. But just a thought, the SECOND Adam would be Jesus, who provided the sacrifice for that original sin, but yes it is present, but yes we have a Holy Spirit to help, but yes it was forgiven, once and for all. So it makes no difference whether our sin sometimes causes illness (mental or physical) and I don’t beleive that it is up to us to judge which it is. We will stand before the Man in the end and so will you. Another thing, God never healed the same way twice in the Bible, so He can heal anyways he wants, even through manmade ways. And of course mud did not heal, but why did he use the mud then? God can use anything to heal, even medicine. Don’t put God in a box. Sorry for my comments that may have been out of anger, but I stand that you are wrongly being legalistic.
Yeah, I thought you and jennifer were probably drawing that same distinction and it needed cleared up. You and she were thinking that Rick and I were both saying that everyone who has a mental illness has it because they sinned and God allowed it to come on them. That is NOT what rick and I were propogating. Like you said, ORIGINAL SIN is what we were talking about. All illness is caused by Adam’s sin essentially. And Christ is the answer to Adam’s sin, therefore we will all be restored in the coming Kingdom reign of Christ without mental or physical illness because of HIS work on the cross.
Teresa, do you believe that keeping God’s ten commandments is still mandatory in this New Covenant of grace? Are you a legalist because you love God and keep His commandments? No, no, no, of course not. Biblically, leagalism is conforming to any law, righteous or evil, in order to EARN something from God. E.G. “If I pray 30 minutes a day, God will do such and such for me out of merit” NO. Nevertheless, we do pray everyday, because we love God and want a relationship with Him. Not to earn anything, and therefore not out of legalism.
Likewise, we can’t earn anything from God by keeping His commandments, but nevertheless, we do keep his commandments if we are Christians. “Little children, be not deceived, he who practices righteousness is righteous, and he who practices lawlessness is of the Devil” -the Apostle John 1rst Eptistle.
Also, Let me clear something else up for you. I do am not against medicine for your body. But I am against the answers Psychology gives for treatment when you CAN treat the source: the sin nature.
For instance, Luke was a doctor, Paul told Timothy to take some wine, “for his stomach’s sake” etc.
The Bible clearly says medicine is not wrong in order to help your physical body. But that’s not Psychology. We use medicine because we are still waiting for the redemption of our bodies (Rom. 8) but our souls have already been redeemed by Christ shed blood and sacrifice for our sins. So then, when we are dealing with the soul in such things as hate, jealousy, envy, murder, lust, alchoholism etc. 10 step programs, AA programs, and drugs won’t help! But Jesus will instantly break every bondage if they know how to get the power of the Holy Spirit which is through faith in Jesus sacrifice, and by reckoning the old man dead unto sin. Then the Spirit makes one victorious over the sin nature, and the old man dies. Hence, no more bondage.
But if someone has a chemical imbalance, and Jesus does not heal them, the Bible makes it clear that medicine is not wrong, and I never said it was. Even if Psychologist prescribe it. I said Psychology was wrong. Because if your not dealing with the bodies illness, but the soul which has effect on the body, Psychology can only “treat” the symptom, when you can fix it at the source “the sin nature.” For instance, if you have an anger problem, you need victory over the sin nature through Christ. You won’t get victory by beating a pillow, even if a “Christian Psychologist” said it would help. What if it does help at that moment? What happens when you have a fit again? Go out and waist your money on pillow? And what happens when you can’t find one and all that’s around is your poor husband? (just kidding).
But the power of the sin nature must be broken. The old man must die. Read Romans 6 7 and 8 and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
In the mind of God, when you believed on Christ for salvation, you were baptized/immersed into Christ. So the way God looks at it is this. Jesus died on the cross, so your old nature died with Him. Jesus was vitorious over sin, so you are victorious over sin. When you look at it the way God looks at it, and you reckon yourself dead indeed unto sin IN Jesus Christ (because you are IN Him to God) Rom. 6:11, then the “Law of the Spirit of life” will set you free from the law of sin and death. That’s the way you overcome. By faith. If you add to it, it hinders the Holy Spirit. If you mortify the flesh daily through Christ, then you won’t have to fight battles of temptation that Christ has already fought and won for you. Then what seemed like bondages and chains of darkness in your life, turn into noodles so to speak. The Holy Spirit destroys the power of the old nature, and makes it’s very desires dead in your life. It’s a work of God, and this is the victorious resurrection life you can have. In fact, adding anything to it like AA programs and 10 step programs etc. Is law, and hinders the Holy Spirit because your not going God’s way alone. When you do, you will have victory like never before. I know what I’m talking about. It’s happened to me Teresa. So there’s the differences. ORIGINAL SIN vs. ACTUAL SIN. And bodily medicine vs. SECULAR PSYCHOLOGY.
You may stand and say I’m legalistic, by I can just as easily say that you are anti-nomianistic. (lawless). The terms don’t mean anything. I’m not earning anything from God (legalism), I’m obeying God’s word out of uncompromising love (obediance). If you obey God, you’re a legalist. If you go to the other extreme, you’re a antinomianist. I’ll just obey God while I’ve got the chance. So here I stand, and I shall not be moved except by conviction under the Spirit of God. Do your worst.
Gerry Paul Hudson
Gerry – since I live in Dayton, Ohio, I’ll go check it out in person! I’m very excited about meeting someone raised from the dead. God bless you, brother.
Also – I’m sorry using the word “crap” offended you. God bless.
I just wanted to add two cents here. Not everyone is a Christian. Thinking that Christian counseling and reading the gospel can cure someone with bipolar illness or other biologically based illnesses is just as crazy as having someone only pray and read scriptures to cure cancer.
You may preach one way, but if it was your family member or a good friend, I bet you would think otherwise.
Let god judge others.
Wow! A lot of hostility here. We all need grace that’s for sure. I guess the bottom line is: Either God’s word and the blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient, or it is not. The scriptures makes this claim. Either you believe it, or you don’t. I guess people have to make the final decision. If you insist on seeing a psychologist, you better make sure you are totally grounded in the word of God. Because you WILL be exposed to a belief system that in many ways, contradicts God’s word. And the only way that you will know this, is if you are totally grounded in God’s word. Another thing. Psychology, for the most part, is completely man-centered. The gospel of Jesus Christ and the word of God, are completely God centered. And consider the people behind many of the theories that exist today. Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, etc.. These men were outspoken atheists. Remember that when you test the teachings and beliefs of psychology against God’s word, that you don’t put the cart before the horse. In other words, don’t come to the scriptures with psychological theories and beliefs and force God’s word to conform. It’s the other way around. God’s word is the standard, not our preconceived belief systems. I personally don’t understand why people don’t just simply trust and believe God’s word for what it is. When it comes to psychology, the issue is not if it helps people, but does it contradict the word of God. Upon careful study, one will see a glaring, obvious difference between what the scriptures tell us and what Psychologists are telling us today.
Whew! I could go on & on & on….
But I’ve said enough.
I’m sticking to the word Of God!
God Bless You All!