And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spoke, saying, “I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified.” And Aaron held his peace.
—Leviticus 10:1-3 KJV
A couple weeks ago in church, I was talking with some small group friends when a woman approached us and regaled us with stories of a massive revival going on down in Florida. She said it was all over the TV (*cough*, TBN, *cough*). Said hundreds were getting healed. (Okay, good.) Said the gifts were operating powerfully. (Also good.) Said people were coming from all over the world to attend. (Not sure what to think about that, since fads can pull in people, too, but okay.) Said God was giving people gold teeth. (Yikes!)
A few bloggers/writers are discussing this “revival” (here, here, here, and here) and all the typically charismatic hoopla that attends it. The descriptions seem all too familiar.
Me? My hackles are up. I’ve been around enough real manifestations of the Holy Spirit to know that something is odd about this “revival.” I was never a big fan of the so-called Toronto Blessing, had a boatload of reservations about the Brownsville Revival, and now this.
Here’s my take on the revival in Lakeland:
1. All true revival is marked by one overarching, indisputable reality: People are driven to repentance. And not “Me too, me too!” repentance, but the kind that soaks the carpeting in tears of holy remorse for sin. Any revival that is not first and foremost preceded by and given over to repentance is not a Holy Spirit-ordained revival. The number one fruit coming out of any revival will always be fruits of repentance. And those fruits remain. They don’t vanish six months after roadies pack up the revival tent; they last a lifetime. Want to gauge who’s behind this revival? Watch for fruits of repentance. If everything but repentance is visible front and center stage, then it’s not a revival from God.
2. There’s no fool like a charismatic fool. And I say that as a charismatic. Too many charismatics drink from poisoned wells only to clutch their guts in pain later, asking what went wrong. What went wrong is that no one was bold enough to test the spirits to see if they were from God. Want a wise foundation for that kind of discernment? Start right here.
3. Whenever the emphasis gets off Jesus, a revival’s focus is off target. The Holy Spirit always pulls people to Jesus. He doesn’t pull them toward angels, canny preachers, or displays of spiritual gifts. He doesn’t need gold teeth, gold dust, and angel feathers to point people to Jesus. (Those are illusionist and occultist tricks.) He just needs himself because He is sufficient to do the pointing. Real revival isn’t about what you or I want, but what Jesus Christ wants.
4. When the sons of Aaron offered “strange fire” before the Lord, their offering was probably close to what it should have been. After all, they knew the formalities. The problem was that close doesn’t count except in horseshoes and hand grenades. God doesn’t put up with close. His worshipers worship Him in Spirit and in truth. And there’s no “almost” in truth. You want “almost” when it comes to truth? Consider Satan; he’s a master of the almost truth. If we’ve got experienced charismatics at a revival with folded arms and scrunched brows saying, “Well, you know…,” then it’s strange fire.
5. Real revival doesn’t just draw one kind of Christian. It draws everyone. It draws Episcopalians, Lutherans, Reformed, Presbyterian, Nazarene, Brethren, Mennonite, Methodist, Baptist—everyone. And not just Christians, either. Real revival pulls in hundreds of the unsaved and the cultists. Real revival spills out of the cup that first held it. It rains down on whomever is near because God doesn’t discriminate. He’s an equal opportunity anointer of those who wholeheartedly seek Him.
That’s what I have to say about this “revival” in Florida. You can take my comments for what they’re worth.
Why does this crap always happen in Florida?
ConstantSorrow,
In part because of the large immigrant community there. In part because Florida is a vacation and resort destination. People are looking for excitement, and when you go looking for it, you find it (or you manufacture it).
This comment sounds like you are also a racist. HMMM? I question you now more the the outpouring
Whoa! Brother Dan, how many exciting churches have you been in lately. I’m speaking not of goose bumps, but the move of the HolySpirit. Thats exatly what the Lords church needs is to move away from the statis quo of deadness that has left men baron and void of his presence. I have been in many churches in my tenure as a christian and exciting church or rather Gods presence is rare as snow in Florida. Love ya brother.
wow. It’s easier to attack the messenger personally than to put forth a Biblical arguement huh?
Dan is totally right. TRUE movements of God put people on their face. It brings repentance. It brings wailing, and groaning and power that isn’t coated in fanfare and sideshows but is LIFE CHANGING… and the ripple effect is lasting… for generations.
Not everything God does in a church is classified as “exciting” according to our instant MTV-gotta have HD generation… but it pierces men to the soul, and it might not “look” flashy, but it’s fruit is unmistakable!
It is interesting to read the comments of the:Strange Fire artical. If a real revival came that would be poo pooed also. We have been so spoiled in America by Religion We have no ability too discern between the true and the false. The truth is in any true revival there are risks. Why? Because the enemy tries to spoil the real. I am sure there are flakes and fakes in any move of God but that goes with the territory.
I have been watching this Florida revival from the beginning (and I am not a charismatic) and I have to say there are elements that suggest a true move of God.
It was mentioned a true move of God will be true repentance. There has been a great demonstration that in this move of God. Pastors admitting of sin in their lives and repenting. Church members confessing loose living and getting right with God. People coming off the street drawn by the Holy Spirit to be delivered from sin.
I don’t know about the gold teeth and gold dust but I do know the documented raising of the dead cannot be faked. Many miracles that only God can do are being evidenced.
I find many who criticize this revival have issues in there own life that they are unwilling to deal with and mask their own sins by dumping on a revival or move of God that exposes them.
It is time we take any good that is being done and savor it in these last days before the coming of Christ.
Its real convienant to throw scriptures around to try and validate your point. But the Author of “Strange Fire” article is not even sure what strang fire was that the boys gave. any person worth their salt would understand what truely took place their. But they rather just give opinions. We cant have religion and revival, they just dont mix. Satan uses the mouths of “religious” folk to divide Gods kingdom. You can’t put God in your religious box and say this is what revival is because of your previous experiences. God is bigger then your theology. Its no wonder the author is criticle of this revival. He was criticle of the other moves as well. I think he needs to REPENT for having such a judgmental heart. Remember if you attribute the works of God to the works of Satan, then you BLASPHEME against the Holy Ghost. Enough Said.
Dear brother Chris, I hear you and I can decern that your a man of God seeking for His will in your Life as all who love and trust Him. So brother let us cut him some slack and lift him to the Lord and bless his soul he is our brother. love ya Chris.
Amen Brother Nick i agree with you! When God Is At work the enemy always has a plan to destroy the work of the Holy Spirit, but he will never prevail, thanks be to God! Papa God just gave me Acts 6 which tell us about Stephen, He was doing God’s work! and yet the so-called Leader’s of the law seized him and stoned him to death!
Brothers and Sister we have to test the spirit. Read 1samuel 16v7 and lets pray for each other! we are all still in a school and the Holy Spirit is our Teacher!
No-one is greater than anyone, Jesus Is GREATER, and he lives in us,through his Spirit therefore he who is in us is GREATER than he who is in the world! 1john4v4
Greetings from a former Ooze buddy. 🙂
Thanks for posting this. I read a similar article in Charisma recently. We attend an Assembly of God, and I worry that this movement will infiltrate our denomination. I am awaiting some formal statement from the denomination soon.
I will definitely recommend this reading to my family members who are dangerously buying into all of this out of fear of writing off something real and “hindering the spirit” and out of hunger for something real.
Thanks again.
LeBelle
A question Dan, can you please explain then form your point of view, what the difference between God’s “signs & wonders” &
“gold teeth, gold dust, and angel feathers…. (Those are illusionist and occultist tricks.)”
Whilst I tend to agree with you on all your other points I wonder if maybe you might have written off something that is foolish to our natural minds…..
Thing is, if you look outside of the US Church box for a moment, God is moving powerfully around the world & within different ‘movements’ & I think we need to be careful not to get cynical & excuse our cynicism by calling it discernment.
I don’t like the term ‘revival’, it implies something is dead & the body of Christ is far from dead, but in the west, it is in desperate need of refreshing & encouragement…..
I 100% agree that if people are not being led to repentance & Christ we have missed the mark, but when Jesus healed the 10 leapers in what we might call a ‘spectacle’ only one came back to give thanks to Jesus.
There are always going to be the ‘fruities’ that are attracted to miracles.
I’m blabbering, but here in our little church in rural Australia, we are actually seeing amazing miracles-people being healed of massive heart conditions & growing new bypass arteries, signs -a gold tooth or two & people coming (&returning) to God & a lot of people have been encouraged by the possibility of what God could do if they push into him, & yes some of them (not all) have been watching Florida.
Just a thought…
Amy,
In Job 31:24, we are told not to put our confidence and trust in gold. Simon the Sorcerer attempted to buy the Holy Spirit with gold and was sternly rebuked. God isn’t interested in gold. The real gold is found in being filled with the Spirit and knowing God’s word and handling it correctly.
God doesn’t give signs that point people away from Jesus. Any sign that calls attention to itself and away from Jesus is not a sign from God. Gold teeth, gold dust, and angel feathers do just that.
Where do you come up with this stuff Dan? I have heard Todd himself say that with any outpouring that flesh is apart of it, It dont mean that the miracles are not real. people will be people and some seek the attention of the camera. Unfortuately critics like yourself focus on the negative and not the positive. Looking for the dirt under every carpet and misquoting things and taking them out of context. I bet you are a big Hank Hanagraf fan, and like hime are a heratic hunter. All i know is that there are 6 things the lord hates and the 7th is an abonination. Those who sow discord amongst the brethren. Check your heart because your comments are doing just that. I pray that you dont destroy the wheat as you descide to rip up the tares. Thats not your Job anyway. Stop trying to play the role of the Holy Ghost Jr. -Enough Said
Amy, not to worry you want the razzle dazzle – Australia is on the list, this has been well planned and will be going to 12 planned cities (what IHOP calls prophecy/paid up ministry friends churches really). You all will have your chance to be seduced.. Bentley has bought his way in, knows all the players very well, (you can see him talking about the in house media coverage etc on YouTube to his staff at dinner).
There are videos of him ‘imparting’ his whatever to his associates heading to the UK, NZ and Australia.
This was planned as a viral marketing internet campaign with God TV. It’s working.
How come it’s always gold teeth? The divine dentist would want the best for you wouldn’t he? There are videos exposing the gold dust and the angel feathers (they used to be called dove feathers)
This is not new.
The Tampa Tribune has stories on the buckets of money being carried out to be counted. Stories about ticked off neighbours who have young people laying on their lawns zoned out of their minds. Signs up at the venue telling people not to lay hands on each other etc.
There are verified reports of Bentley’s website removing his angel of prosperity and Emma experiences. (They are back) There are videos of him yelling about dominionism. His own words and behavior can be easily measured up against the bible. That’s a US political/theocratic idea being exported.
Revival is not a term in the bible, I think Dan summed this up for many followers of Jesus Christ with wisdom borne of hard experience.
You miss read my comment Bene D.
I don’t want as you put it “razzle dazzle”. God help us.
Quite frankly this isn’t even about Todd Bently, what I want to know is, what would it take for you (& Dan) to acknowledge a move of God / signs & wonders from God, as opposed to ‘razzle dazzle’.
‘There is more in heaven & earth than dreamed of in our widest philosophies dear Horatio’ (paraphrase ;-))
Wisdom & discernment v’s cynicism & lack of faith, where do you draw the line?
Amy,
My number 1 in the list above will tell you what I think about true moves of God. True moves of God are ALWAYS accompanied by repentance on a massive scale. They are always rooted in the word of God and not in personal anecdotes. They produce lasting fruit that changes nations. They pass the discernment tests. There are no qualms about them from the experienced believers who truly know God.
I have no problems with signs and wonder that are real. I’ve seen real signs and wonders that are indisputably from God. But the nutty stuff that comes out of far too many charismatic “revivals” is not genuine. Its fruit is confusion and too many people are eating it.
there is true repentantace and nations are being changed but you are too busy and blind to see it
aa
Dear dan E., Chris, Ronni, Nick, Amy and all Gods childern. I know for certain that we are all children of God Thru His son Jesus. What is this? I will tell you what it is, unpleasing to our heavenly Father. No one can decern the truth thru this bickering back and forth. We all will be accountable to God for every idle word we speak or say to each other or write. I came on this site at first with expectation of hearing and sharing with my brothers and sisters in Christ. I am disappointed with the lot of you. I pray that some lost soul doesn’t happen on to this sight. The problem with the american church members is that they haven’t learned what it is all about. It ain’t about you or me and our pitiful opinions. Do yourselves a favor and ask Him what it’s all about. ain’t good english but true. love to all.
Jim,
No disrespect, but if we do not apply discernment at all times, then we fail to live by the Spirit. Period. The truth is that false prophets will lead many astray. If we are not on guard against them, what then will be the outcome?
Amy,
I owe you a better response than the one I wrote earlier.
This is how I approach these things:
1. Assume the role of the skeptic. Start there. Go in with a “prove it” attitude. Pauld called the Bereans more noble because they didn’t swallow what he said but checked it first to see if it was true. God will prove Himself true always. Satan never will. Better to be skeptical and not swallow the lie at all than to have to down the spiritual “Pepto Bismol” later. Paul didn’t rebuke the Bereans for being skeptical, but lauded them for not taking him at face value by going back to the Scriptures to see if what he said is true.
2. If it’s not in Scripture, it’s not of God. I don’t see gold dust, gold teeth, and angel feathers mentioned in the Scriptures in any way as to proving God’s blessing on people. In fact, the Scriptures point AWAY from such things.
3. There is no such thing as new doctrine. All the doctrine we need is in the Scriptures. Whenever you’ve got people trying to construct new doctrine out of a new revelation, you’ve got the makings of error. In almost every case of error within the charismatic fold, you will have people doing just this. It’s rampant.
4. I would want to see repentance taking precedence over signs and wonders. The greatest sign and wonder possible is for a man or woman dead in sin to be born again. If hundreds of people are genuinely repenting then getting saved AND there are signs and wonders, that helps validate the signs and wonders.
5. Signs and wonders are signs and wonders to the unbeliever primarily because they occur to point the unbeliever to Jesus. Believers should not be captivated by signs and wonders. They are part and parcel of the Kingdom. If believers are captivated, then those signs and wonders are actually working against their supposed purpose.
I would encourage you to also read the link in my post under #2. That has good advice on how to deal with signs and wonders.
Dan. Thank you for your comment. Believe me when I say, I actually agree with you 100%.
This whole thing has provoked some very interesting discussion/consideration/wrestling within our church amongst our pastors/elders/congregation & we have all come to the same place.
What has God called us to in our local area & how do we as a local Church shine our light & run our race in a way that will lead unbelievers to Christ & believers into a deeper relationship with Christ
Seek first the Kingdom of God,Keep your eyes on Christ, go & make disciples, repent for the kingdom of God is near & Jesus is the way, TRUTH & light/life. When you get that right (or as close as humanly possible) the signs come (or not). Acts is a great example of how we should be behaving as a church.
I asked this question, because I have seen the gold teeth & at no time would I say that the couple who received them were in anyway ‘fruity’ or apart of the moves that have been mentioned above, in fact they came out of very traditional Anglican background & are very grounded in the word & faith. This whole family has then gone on to see massive miracles of healing (cancer, heart disease etc.) & repentance within the family at large. Why the teeth, I don’t know, but the fruit is in the family.
Whilst I agree with what you have said about Florida,I guess I don’t want to write off everything right away…
One good thing that has come out of it for us, is the discussion & teaching that has resulted from our leadership bringing correction to some church members who have got carried away by the ‘razzle dazzle’.
I think in any discussion like this, it is important to remember that if God can make a donkey talk, some are going to come to Jesus & repent via ways that we may never comprehend.
I’ve been wondering if you were going to post on this. I live in Fl. and carpool with two gentlemen who are following the event in Lakeland. One of them has actually gone over twice to be a part of it. Honestly, I just cannot buy into the whole ‘mighty move of God’ thing. Something just smells rotten here. I have not seen any tangible change in the person who has been exposed to God’s glory (supposedly) at this event. He is the same as he ever was. Am I wrong to expect to see certain things in order to believe that this is for real?
Whenever I hear the term ‘signs and wonders’ I almost always think of the lyrics to ‘Crumbs From Your Table’ by U2: ‘You speak of signs and wonders/well I need something other/I would believe if I was able/but I’m waiting for the crumbs from your table’ People need real, tangible, practical help from the Body of Christ, not smoke and mirrors from from the wizard (ignore that man behind the curtain). Who was it that said: ‘Some people are so poor they can only see God in the form of bread’? My two cents…
DC,
It’s the “here today, gone tomorrow” aspect of so many of these “revivals.” They have no lasting impact. And genuine moves of God don’t work that way. This entire country is what it is because of the First and Second Great Awakenings. Without those, the entire history of our country is changed for the worse.
There are so many red flags on this Lakeland thing that it will rival the upcoming opening ceremonies at the Beijing Olympics.
Dan, Thanks again for an excellent post. I to have my “red flags” waving on this one to. I believe your post was one that brings some much needed, level headed approach.
While we have to be careful to keep our hearts open to God moving, we also have to be weary of accepting everything that claims to be of God. Not all the glitters is gold! We have to truly test the spirits.
Love your blog, good balanced approach to things relating to churches.
Geoff,
“Level-headed” is a big compliment, let me tell you. I wish more of American Christendom were level-headed!
Taking your comment for what they’re worth, this is what I’m basically seeing
Rick,
Positive or negative? I’m not sure which way you’re going on your comment.
THANK YOU for commenting on this! A few weeks ago when this started… I was excited but after a few days of watching this online and seeing some of the stuff Todd was saying (and NOT saying) I got concerned, my bells went off, and I stopped watching. I was given free airfare to go and had a place to stay, but I just couldn’t go. I want revival more than anyone but this is not sitting well with me at ALL.
I talked to a few friends of mine and we are in agreement. I’m concerned about this angel “Emma” Todd brings up. Number one I’ve NEVER seen a FEMALE angel… and especially one with a name like Emma. Also I”m concerned that Emma is apparently the angel associated with teh start of the Brownsville revival, the offshoot of Toronto, the Kansas City prophets, and eventually IHOP.
I’m concerned in a HUGE way. I don’t see JESUS spoken of here… I don’t see mass calls to repentance. I see people wanting the signs and wonders instead of the one who authors them.
One question I always had… why gold teeth? Wouldn’t he just give them new teeth? I mean, actual teeth? I’ve never seen God heal a leg by giving them a gold leg or a prosthesis. He heals back to the original design. I think we better keep our discernment up. I know one thing… revival involves travail and wailing.
I’m not hearing much wailing right now. Rather an opportunistic cry out for blessing!!!!
AMEN to that statement.Discernment and the leading of the Lord is needed in regards to what is happening in Florida.If it is of the Lord and he wants it to go forth nothing will stop him.I am reminded of a story in scripture and I hope I can tell it correctly.After Jesus had gone back to heaven the disciples continued to move in the power of the Holy Spirit.The religious leaders continued to harass them.One of the religious leaders spoke up and said if it is not of God it will pass like so many others passed who came before them but if it is of God be careful lest you find yourselves fighting against God.Get the picture! The body of Christ needs to be discerning whether this is a true move of God or not.Just beacuse there are signs and wonders it doesn’t mean it is God.Even Jannus and Jambres in Moses time were doin up some pretty funky stuff.DISCERNMENT,DISCERNMENT,DISCERNMENT I can’t say it enough.Test the spirits to see if it is the Lord or not,if we will not do this than we will be open to any kind of deception form the enemy.
“True moves of God are accompanied by repentence”. That is exactly right.. It’s about seeing the dirtiness of our sin in light of the holiness of Christ. When Jesus shows up on the scene it is unmistakable.
Thanks for this post Dan. I was hoping you would adress what is happening there.
Cheryl,
It just grieves me that so many people lack even a basic filter. Every piece of junk goes right through them. It baffles me how this can be.
there is true repntantace their cheryl. nations are being changed. Dont fall into Dans cynicle trap
Dan,
Thanks for the bold treatment of the subject. I think you are correct in focusing on repentance as the telling issue in revival. Has there been a large scale revival that managed to embrace signs and wonders and repentance since the Pentecostal Revival in 1906? What I wonder, in the midst of all these gems, gold, dust and feathers, is why wouldn’t God just heal a decayed tooth by filling it with tooth? The gold just highlights the decay and loss.
slw,
Wow, that’s a great concluding sentence.
Maybe the gold is a needful reminder.
Even Lazarus had to die again.
Amy…..your question asked : (“I wonder if maybe you might have written off something that is foolish to our natural minds….”) is the same one suggested by many others….in defense of corporate, and powerful manifestation. And the fact that many other believers are entering into it, and giving themselves over to it…..will still, never ever in and of itself…..make it any more authentic…..as some thing issuing forth from the throne of God.
The very same reasoning is applied in the very same way by non-believers, to the whole ufo phenomenon and……”they must be more advanced than us-elder brothers from space”……thing. No…the point of my reasoning has nothing to do with ufo’s, etc. But it has much to do with the way many tend to impute a validity to something which on the one hand, is powerfully affecting a corporate body of believers…..something which is drawing many in like a whirlpool…..and on the other, is something which defies the sound and mature scrutiny and application of scripture.
The writers whom you addressed it to, in all probability, have walked with God long enough to know the real differences between the discernment within the spirit (BY the Spirit of God)….and the reasoning done by the conscious mind…..both of which should be operating in healthy measure by the way. In this…..you may be doing their real spiritual maturity something of a disservice.
But this is also not intended as a criticism on your part either……just an encouragement to look even beyond the things which impress themselves on the eyes and ears……and which clamor and compel for our acceptance and authentication. Take care.
Regards,
Ken.
Thanks Ken. No offence taken.
I never intended my query to question Dan’s spiritual maturity. I guess its just that if we can’t ask these type of questions to people in the faith whom we respect opinion, and get a scriptural & level-headed answer, more & more people within the body are going to struggle with making an informed & wise decision for themselves regarding this kind of thing. And it is the responsibility of the ‘mature’ in faith & leaders within the church to bring this kind of direction & teaching. If anything Dan’s response confirmed my own ‘red flags’. My need for a deeper answer comes from the fact that I’m being asked these questions by new Christians, & I need a deeper & more eloquent answer than “I got a red flag waving in my sprit.”
So to all how have responded in wisdom, THANK YOU.
All,
I wanted to recommend a book, Watchman Nee’s The Latent Power of the Soul.
When I first read this book, honestly, I didn’t understand it. I didn’t give it a very good review on Amazon, and that was a mistake; time and again I am finding myself going back to that book to explain a lot of the stuff I see going on with bogus charismata and questionable revivals..
Read that book. It will explain a lot of what is going on (questionably) in Lakeland and elswhere.
I’ll tell you what I’d accept as a genuine revival: solid Biblical teaching, and genuine, God-like miracles (miracles that aren’t ‘flash’, but substance – heal a genuine medically verifiable illness, instead of giving someone supposed Gold-teeth), but honestly I could recognize it as a ‘revival’ if merely Biblical preaching were following by people submitting themselves to Christ’s lordship en masse, which is, by far, the greatest miracle I can imagine: raising the dead.
Shannon,
Yep.
Dan
Did you see this one from FL?
http://mondaymorninginsight.com/index.php/site/comments/the_spirit_said_kick_her_in_the_face/
Chris,
Just awful. How anyone can mistake that for Christianity is beyond me.
That is what the Pharisees said about Jesus. He was so obnoxious to their way of doing things. The problem with Dans critical review is that when their is no evidence of a supernatural revival in our own lives we will find all the abnormal disturbing events that upset our religious world as an excuse for our lack of biblical New Testament Christianity. 99% of what the church is doing today can and is done without the Holy Spirit! We would criticize Jesus if He did the works He performed in his day, today. The move of the Holy Spirit is so rare in the church today it makes us nervous when we can’t control what is happening.
I can appreciate the concern for deception but where is the concern for our own lukewarmness, dryness, and a lack of power of the Holy Spirit in our own lives. Wake up church!!!! Are we concerned that God said he would “spew you out of his mouth because you were neither hot or cold.”
Think about it. If someone comes to most of the church today with a need we send then to some other source to find answers. We have no answer when we are called upon for a supernatural intervention. If someone is sick we look to the medical world for our answers. If they come to us off the street for personal needs we send them to the Salvation Army or search out some social program to meet their needs. What happened to the biblical approach of laying on of hands and healing the sick…. Asking God for miracles so that because of our supernatural act of love the world would know we are His followers
Also, remember that to ‘blaspheme the Holy Spirit’ is to attribute that which is of God to the Devil.
Need I say any more?
Nick
Usher: I think this guy actually believes TB is for real?
Deacon: And why do you have so much confidence TB isn’t
Usher: If it looks like roadkill, smells like roadkill and doesn’t move – it’s roadkill!
Deacon: Are you talking about TB’s looks?
Usher: You’re a little slow Deacon – let me help you out here because your obvious siding with the traditional church blinds you. TB is playing on the naiivety of the ignorant and poor as a magician plays with an audience. He’s just doing it with a “shock-jock” method because the traditional church is so boring and useless, the people fall for it.
Deacon: That’s pretty harsh
Usher: Deak, you can’t deny it’s not true. The church is nothing but a bunch of people making a living off the tithe and service of the laypeople. Nothing more. God’s church is out doing his work. Nick here has it all wrong because he thinks the church should change its ways and help people by “laying on of hands and prayer”. Got news for you, they do and nothing happens which is why people fall for the TB stuff. Nick wants to argue for anything that speaks against the traditional church. Got news for you, they’re both wrong! Now let’s go find some fresh roadkill! mmmmmm.
Dan,
You saw the links from my site! Someone in our congregation (here in Staffordshire, UK) has been going to meetings which I think are the first inroads of this “revival” to the UK. The meetings sounded strange, and I fear that this will become the latest “new thing” to be swallowed hook, line and sinker by many.
Completely off topic, but in regards to your poor struggling computer: have you tried a nice free linux OS? 🙂 Like Ubuntu or PCLinuxOS? I was led down that path for the same reason: a struggling computer and no money for an upgrade.
Tim,
I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I have satellite Internet, which I am progressively displeased with (they cut their download speeds and instituted bandwidth throttling), and the system requires a Windows machine to work. They have newer hardware, but it locks me into an extended contract that I’m not interested in.
The local cable company has said they will get back with me on cable hookup, but I never hear back from them. It’s been years and I keep checking. I really do live in a broadband black hole.
What I’d like to do is ditch all the PC junk and go back to being exclusively Mac, especially since Macs will run Windows native for those few apps I would need Windows for.
Then again, Apple has adopted a disturbing tactic of obsoleting their hardware quickly through their OS upgrades. This in conjunction with software manufacturers who do the same means that you buy a Leopard-based system today and two years from now the latest OS won’t run on your not-so-old system and neither will the latest software updates! I despise that kind of practice, especially since Apple was lauded for doing quite the opposite for years.
As for Linux, I don’t need the hassles. Linux, no matter what anyone says, is still an OS for tinkerers. Sure you can do anything with it and its free, but it also takes more than its share of tweaking to get anything to work, and the instructions for doing even the simplest things are convoluted and geared to UNIX gurus. I just want to work. That’s the whole point of Apple. Forget the tinkering and just get the work done.
To the person wondering about gold dust, feathers and gems that show up, the gold dust has always turned out to be plastic party stuff you find at Walmart, the feathers have been tested and belong to geese or ducks, and the gems are man-made fakes. None have ever been tested by an independent party and found to be real. What kind of sign do you think that is? And all 3 have recently been documented on video as being faked by it’s own leading proponents – (1) preacher lady filling her hair with gold flakes was caught on film doing it in secret before going out on stage where she’s shake her head and miraculously see the flakes/dust appear, (2) preacher lady (different from 1) fills her sleeves with feathers and as she walked through the crowd and had them close their eyes and pray, she’d shake a feather out here and another out there, and (3) the gemstone preacher was seen planting fake gems just in this past month or so and he was challenged and admitted it.
Think about what all that adds up to.
David,
Like I said, illusionist tricks.
As an ex-Pentecostal preacher’s son who has spent all of his life [16 out of 17 years] in that movement, I can say, with much tears, that what is happening in Florida is nothing more than a well-advertised example of chasings signs rather than chasing the Word.
Britain is particularly susceptible, since so many of the Toronto Blessing folks discipled a lot of British Charismatics, including the founders of the Alpha course
Douglas,
Yep. And thanks for stopping by and posting.
Amy:
I didn’t mean to misread you.
Dan answers are solid and wise.
“There’s no fool like a charismatic fool.”
This fool is still smiling over that one!
It seems that lately whenever someone discovers that my wife is in a wheelchair they seem obligated to inform me about Lakeland telling me that she can be healed over the internet.. a sad commentary on charismatic fools.. of which I am most foolish.
All,
There’s two very good sites with more information here:
http://www.newchristian.org.uk/lakeland.html
http://www.revivalschool.com/florida.html
I resonate with what is being said here. The links are all very good, especially the testimony page from a woman who attended a previous “revival” conference led by Todd Bentley.
Dan,
Is this at all similar to what was previous up in the panhandle, the Brownsville Revival? Just wondering. I used to live in the area and same some of the same abuses.
Hayden
To the ‘Christians’ who are questioning this revival and casting aspersions on the character of Todd Bentley, I’d like to ask the following question: “who are YOU and what are YOUR fruits?”.
As for me, I’ve been watching the revival on God TV for weeks now and all I see is God’s glory, goodness and power. The fruits of this revival are plain and clear. There have been 13 raisings from the dead, or are you saying that those were also fake? 2 Thessalonians 2:9 -12 refers to COUNTERFEIT miracles, signs and wonders, not real ones. Open your eyes and discern aright – and you too could receive a blessing.
When the Pharisees heard of Lazarus being raised from the dead, you’d think they would have said “lets get our sick and infirm down to Jesus and receive a blessing”. Instead they said “lets kill him”. You are welcome to stay sick, depressed and negative if you like, but you will only have yourselves and your hard hearts to blame.
For those of you who are determined to judge him, I have this to say. God said “touch not my anointed”. Jesus said “you shall know them by their FRUITS”, not “you shall know them by their tatoos”.
Jesus also said that a time will come when He will say the following to people who thought they were doing His will “I never knew you, depart from me you who practice wickedness”.
Soften your hard hearts before it is too late! You are an “unbelieving and perverse generation” indeed.
John CT,
A few comments:
I have no bone to pick with Todd Bentley and I could care less about his piercings and his tattoos. The bone I have to pick is with his theology, which is quite strange and includes communications with odd “angels” whom he claims are guiding this revival. That’s a huge red flag and people ignore it at their peril. A quick Googling of Bentley will show numerous other problems.
The Bereans of Acts were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true. That should be our model. Healthy skepticism until the facts come in. And the facts coming in on this revival are disturbing. The problem with the charismatic movement is that it has abandoned all discernment and is in danger of swallowing doctrines of demons for its lack of wisdom and vigilance.
I would like to see documentation on the 13 people raised from the dead. Just simple documentation. This is not unbelief, but a request to verify the names of the deceased and their death certificates. I would suspect that if 13 documented cases came forward, the news media would be all over those cases. Again, that would seem fairly straightforward and a healthy test of the veracity of this so-called revival.
The Lord warned that great deceivers would arise in the last days. What means do you use to discern the liars from the genuine article?
Please also read my follow-up posts to this one:
http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/05/thursday-thoughts.html
http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/05/discernment-revivals-and-godly-common-sense.html
I could not agree more with your comment John. I also am not put off by Todds tattoos although some appear to be a bit suss.
what i do have a problem with is his connections with people who encourage visits to heaven(if that were possible) ie Bob Jones, his regular referances to visitations from angels (of the female gender even!) and his claim to have seen and had a conversation with the Apostle Paul! Aparently Paul is a bit on the podgy side!
If this does not want to make one “test the spirits” i don’t no what will.
Hi Dan
I 100% agree with you wrt to this “revival”. I also know and believe that a true revival is of acknowledgement of sins, repentance and needing God’s forgiveness and His salvation. It’s not based on feelings, hype, experiences, etc.
This is not for “pointing fingers” purposes, but more for clarity and seeking God’s truth. Jesus told His disciples to go out into all the nations and preach the gospel, and these signs will follow those who believe: casting out demons, healing the sick,…etc etc. The apostles mission in Acts was preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God, and yes, signs, wonders and miracles did happen around them. But what is the most important thing here? Preaching the gospel of the Kingdom is. I’m not knocking a revival or a particular man, but at the spirit behind it. But truly, what is a revival? Is God’s heart not that all should come to repentance and be saved? Would a revival not be people coming to realisation that they are sinners and need to repent and need forgiveness from God?
I really struggle to believe that salvation comes from feelings, experiences from a signs, wonders and miracles crusade. Ok, let’s say you see all this happening around you, you get swept up with everything and you believe that there is a God, and you accept Jesus into your life, because you’ve seen some amazing stuff. You go home after that, and unless you’ve had a true revelation, aren’t you just going to go back into the life you led, because the hype and the feelings are fading? Did you have a true meeting with Jesus, and realised you need salvation for your soul, or was it because He can heal you and cast out demons?
I have to wonder what a revival is really all about. The word of God is sharper than a double edged sword, and cuts through, dividing soul & spirit, flesh and bone….you know the verse. I believe a revival is God pouring out His Spirit, and people coming to realisation of their sinful ways and repenting, being saved by the masses…… And these signs will follow those who believe.
I’ve been to a revival here in a small hick town in South Africa….LOL. I don’t know if you guys have the movie called “Faith Like Potatoes”, about a farmer called Angus Buchan. Anyhow, I’ve been to two of his revivals, he preaches the gospel of the Kingdom of God. Yo, this man is on fire for Jesus, and after the meet, he put it out there who wants to accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, and then the miracles started happening.
I can’t help but be cautious. I hear many people are being “saved”..but for how long? Will it be as Jesus said in Matt about the seeds falling on the way side? Or amongst the tiers? What will happen to those people when trials and persecution comes their way? Will they hold onto what they experienced at the revival? Or will they hold on to Jesus? We know the Christian walk is not a bed of roses, or based on feelings. I read something very interesting last night…. Acts 14:22 strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith “WE MUST GO THROUGH MANY HARDSHIPS TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD”……….. Will they?
In His Grip
Janine
Dan Edelen:
Concerning Todd Bentley and the “13th resurrection,” you may be interested in an article on the subject at
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/ToddBentley5.htm .
God bless…
Hi John CT,
I was interested enough in your comments to share a few of my own thoughts that come to mind as I read; so none of what follows shouldn’t elicit any personal sentiment as I have no axe to grind…..with you, or Todd Bentley.
I guess I qualify as one of ‘Christians’ you might be referring to……but unlike others……I haven’t actually seen, or listened to, any audio/visuals of Todd Bentley. This has been quite deliberate on my part, as I really want to see and discern what it is that recommends itself to the hearts and minds of many……and what it is that really is at the heart of the serious misgivings of those who don’t receive it as authentic.
Like Dan, I have no issue with Todd’s tattoos. I’ve seen some of his, and have some of my own. So….I think its safe to say that looking at most of the comments, his tattoos have nothing to do with the concerns of most, if not all of the writers.
“WHO are you” (as in….me); well, if I take your question to heart, I really am a child of the living God…..through Christ. That answer truly defines ‘who’ I am. But with respect……my ‘fruits’ have nothing to do with the substance of Todd’s. And Dan again echoes my thoughts concerning the “raised from the dead”. The written copies of death certificates, by registered professionals, would greatly lend authenticity to those claims. This shouldn’t be difficult, or offensive ?
“For those of you who are determined to judge him”
There seems a suggestion here that this is just about everyone voicing their concerns about the substance of what is taking place at present (ie….’catch the fire’); though, I’m not quite sure who you’re referring to ?
The term, “touch not my anointed” should never ever be used as a threat tool against those of God’s children seeking to establish the substance or authenticity (there’s that big word again !) of the word, or life of a professed representative of the mind of God. Neither was it ever intended by God, to gag in any way his children from seeking to establish God’s heart and mind and apply it to their own lives. Surely the heart of the Shepherd welcomes us and bids us to rightly discern and proclaim….the real from the false ? Especially so in these last of days ?? I don’t think God is really as offended with this honest process as some would have us believe.
To be very frank John……..if I ever found myself on an intercontinental flight…..loaded with leading evangelists, teachers, prophets, even seers !……I would still have no fear regards the representation of their lives….or mouths……concerning whether what comes forth from them is in fact born from Heaven in a timely moment. I would still subject their lives…..and what issues from their mouths…..to scrutiny. I would still apply the yardstick that God has given to me in this walk of over 30 years with Him. And all the cumulative reputations that went before them would count for naught……if my Shepherd failed to enthusiastically recommend it to me….for whatever reason.
My bottom line John….? I simply have a far greater love for the revealed heart of the living God…..than I have for any vessel that claims to be the means for it.
Ken.
Charisma tried to verify one of the claimed resurrections because a name was provided, but the hospital completely denied the account as claimed.
One of the gentlemen declared healed at Lakeland was a minister. You can find the information on Andrew Strom’s forum.
“Anyways the real reason I decided to post on here was because of a dear friend of mine who passed away this morning at 5:20 AM. His name is Pastor Larry Reed, Pastor of Olympic View Assembly of God in Silverdale, Washington. Pastor Larry has been suffering for the past 18 months of terminal bone cancer. He was given only a year to live, but PRAISE THE LORD out lived the doctors findings. He (Pastor Larry) told me last year at breakfast one morning that he wanted more for Jesus and was going to do whatever it took to accomplish that. He invited speakers from all over the country from evangelists to prophetic speakers so that he and his congregation could catch the fire and maybe just maybe a revival would break out in his church.
He really took a turn for the worst this year, and lost most of his weight, he looked like a skeleton, was on oxygen and needed care all of the time. He couldn’t even preach anymore. Pastor Larry was a man who dearly loved Jesus, and was very strong in his faith and very strong in stature physically. So to see him him so frail was shocking to say the least.
Last week on 5/18/08 he was in the sanctuary there in Lakeland trying to find the healing he soo much wanted, sitting in his wheel chair in front of Mr. Bentley, he was deemed as “healed” when Pastor Larry stood up and cheered in victory. During the course of last week when he returned, he got worse and so this morning he died.”
Stage 1V cancer would have been quite a healing, not hard to verify. It is not at all unreasonable to ask for documentation. I don’t think you’ll be seeing Larry Reed’s death mentioned on GodTV.
Praise the Lord ,your pastor and friend Larry is with the one he loved and served here while on earth.He is no longer suffering but rejoicing with the saints before the throne of God.I have come to beleive that God does not heal everyone but he does heal.I know there will be many who disagree with me but that’s o.k. I have no response to that.I l had a very dear friend die from cancer a couple of months ago.People prayed for her 20 ways to Sunday but she wasn’t healed,if it had been God’s will for her to be healed she would still be with us.She was a woman of God and a woman of faith and her life was used of God to touch many other lives even thru her sickness yes her sickness.She didn’t die beacuse of a lack of faith,she didn’t die beacuse of a lack of those praying for her.This was God’s will for her life.That statement won’t sit right with many but that’s o.k.When we pray for people we really need to hear what the Lord is saying for that person not what we hear someone else saying or even our selves.We need to know what the will of the Lord is for the person that we are praying for.I know we want people to be healed but what if the Lord is wanting to deal with other things first.
Does anyone else see parallels with Frank Peretti’s “The Visitation”? I saw that movie about a month before the first e-mail came out from Charisma, and no sooner had I started reading about Bentley and his claim that Branham’s angel was with him, I made the connection with the film.
I wanted to comment on something I heard Todd say in last night’s meeting. He was talking about the woman from Canaan in Matthew chapter 15 who pleaded with Jesus to deliver her demon-possessed daughter. He was instructing the audience to plead and cry out before Jesus to heal and deliver them (which I have no problem with). But, he then went on to say, AND I QUOTE,
“That’s the Jesus that’s here tonight. That’s not the Jesus that shows up every night, but there’s a Jesus here tonight. The woman came and worshiped him and said, ‘Lord, help me.’ And I heard the Lord tell me to let Jesus in me help people tonight.”
Now…if last night’s Jesus isn’t the one who’s there every night, the WHO are these “other” Jesuses??? THERE IS ONLY ONE JESUS! ANY OTHERS ARE IMPOSTERS AND STRAIGHT FROM HELL! And anyone who teaches, preaches, or tries to introduce or “impart” another Jesus is a liar and is not operating by the power of God!
Deacon & Usher were here…..
Usher: Sounds like someone’s selling roadkill Deak!
Deacon: Don’t people know that roadkill is free Deak?
Staying Within the Confines of the Word of God
God has left us His Word and His Spirit to give us direction for our lives. Our lives are to be governed by the Word of God with the help of the Holy Spirit. (Psalm 119:105, John 16:13, Romans 8:14) When we go outside of the parameters of the Word of God we open the door to demonic deception. (Ephesians 4:27)
There are 3 doctrines being taught in the church today that in my opinion are very harmful because they open the door to demonic power to manifest in the church. The first one is that if you are a prophet you can prophesy to anyone you want at will because you are a prophet. This doctrine violates the Word of God. The Word of God says in 1 Corinthians 12:11 the gifts of the Spirit operate as God wills, not as we will. 2 Peter 1:21 says that prophecy never comes by the will of man. Ironically if you get into verse one of chapter two he begins to warn the church about false prophets. When a person operates the gifts of the Spirit by his own will he opens the door to familiar spirits that are demonic to give him information. That person now becomes a Christian medium for demonic power. Even Jesus could not operate the gifts of the Spirit as He willed because He was operating as the son of man on the earth. He had put His mighty power and glory to the side and had to be anointed to function for God. (John 5:19, 20, 30, Philippians 2:7 TLB, Acts 10:38)
The second doctrine that I also see that is damaging to the church is the doctrine of seeking angelic visitations and asking God to give you visions. No where in scripture do we see this. There is no biblical basis for this. The Bible says we walk by faith and not by sight. (2 Corinthians 5:7) Again seeing into the spirit realm is done thru the gift of discerning of spirits which is one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. Again like prophecy this gift operates as the spirit wills. When you go outside of the Word of God you open yourself up for demonic deception and you will begin to have visions of angels and Jesus but it will be devils that transform themselves as angels of light to deceive people.(2 Corinthians 11:12-15)
Colossians2:18-19(The Message Translation)Don’t tolerate people who try to run your life, ordering you to bow and scrape, insisting that you join their obsession with angels and that you seek out visions. They’re a lot of hot air, that’s all they are. They’re completely out of touch with the source of life, Christ, who puts us together in one piece, whose very breath and blood flow through us. He is the Head and we are the body. We can grow up healthy in God
The third doctrine that is damaging to the body of Christ is that you can go to Heaven and visit any time you want to. They use Hebrews 4:16, Ephesians 2:6 these doctrines are doctrines of devils devised in these last days to cause people to fall away. (1Timothy 4:1-2, 2 Timothy 4:1-5) When you start visualizing and doing some of the new age stuff they are teaching about this you will have supernatural experiences but they won’t be from Jehovah God but from the god of this world the devil.
Hebrews 5:14 tells us that thru the use of the meat of the Word of God we train our senses to discern both good and evil. Let us judge things by the Word of God and the inward witness of the Holy Ghost.(1 Thessalonians 5:20-21, John 16:13, Romans 8:14,16, 1 John 4:1)
I’m so happy that my son has Found Jesus! I can attribute that to Todd Bentley. Now who is going to show him the truth? I’m so afraid for my 17 year old son. His whole church has gone crazed with the Holy Ghost, the anointing, the fire; my son speaks in tongues and he believes this with all his heart. I have watched the Lake Land Revival; I am not impressed. I have seen folks being knocked over by the power of “BAM for years and I have never been given a message from the Holy Ghost that said this was right. I can sit here and read blogs all day and I all I read is, “Bible Bashing meaning scripture put against scripture to prove points. You know what I want? I want proof! I want to see the documents of these “documented healings; not one have I seen. I can be shown televised proof, but I watched Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ be taken by a cyclone when I was just a tadpole; I believed that witch was real. Trickery or reality which is it. Help me see the truth. Yes, I have prayed fervently for answers… my answer is that: Todd Bentley is a fraud, but as has been said before Jesus said not to stop them and to let go; after all, my son is saved. The hard part is letting go. My son my get beat up because he approaches most every stranger because the Holy Ghost said to and talks about Jesus. The Holy Ghost also tells him EVERY move to make during the day and “The Holy Ghost told me do or say this or that. I pray in Jesus name for answers. He says LET GO. How does one let go of this?
Hi Sara,
this is my second attempt to write this. I pressed the wrong button on my laptop and everything I wanted to say went down the gurgler. So….second attempt !
I don’t have my own kids…….and how I wish I did……but I do feel for your concerns and fears. I said it earlier and I’ll say it again. The greatest loss to todays church ?? (and we will pay the pay the price for it for a long while)……is the loss of knowledge of that which is truly Holy. And so lots of new and shiny…..anything-goes stuff…..will pull in the hungry and the searching.
The second biggest (and….maybe even the 1st ) loss to us ?? The inability of believers in a widespread sense, to discern and identify spiritual adultery when it comes knocking. And like 100% grape wine…….which has been mingled with water……its almost impossible tell one from the other when they’re fully mingled together. BUT….the experienced palate can tell. And so it is with the Spirit of Christ within each of us. When it doesn’t stack up to the taste……you want to spit it out.
Who will teach your son to discern this when he”s so young in the Lord ?? If the ears of his spirit are tuned more to the voice of Todd Bentley……than they are to the still small voice of Christ…..then he wont yet know the difference. The latter will anchor him….no matter what vessel sails along.
Ken.
Maybe this has been mentioned somewhere else in your blog but thought I would post it. I just heard of this book(s) “Why I Left The Prophetic Movement….Gold Dust and Laughing Revivals”….. To heed John Paul Jackson, Patricia King, and Todd Bentley or men like Leonard Ravenhill and David Wilkerson.” It is wriiten by Andrew Storm.
Another is “The Gospel For Those Broken by the Church” by Dr. Rod Rosenbladt.
I also recently heard of Spirit Watch Ministries by Rev Rafael and Joy Martinez. They may be of some help also. They are charismatic and understand the excesses.
If you’ve only seen The Visitation by Frank Peretti on video, you should really read the book. Amazing parallels between the book’s version of Justin Cantwell and Todd Bentley, re: angelic visitations and the amazing healings. I was amazed.
My wife reminded me that Peretti’s book is fiction and metaphorical, which is true, but it has real insight into the spiritual quests of people and, sadly, how so many miss the real Jesus.
How to deseve even the elect?
– take a biblical truth
– twist it just enough to set it to hell-standard
– serve it like it is prepared by the most high
Oh, this will be judged in better times…
cheers Luka (Holland)
What’s wrong with people getting healed, saved, delivered…Lakeland has all this happening and people who think they know theology need to wake up and stop grieving the heart of GOD and HIS MIGHTY POWER. How many miracles are happening in your ministry sir or maam who downplay Todd or really anything that has to do with a power encounter beyond Coombiya My Lord.
All,
To those who keep claiming that the miracles are their own evidence, I point to Jannes and Jambres, Pharaoh’s court magicians, who like Moses turned their staffs into snakes.
Discernment begins and ends with the Bible. It’s God’s word and it never lies. Some have disparaged theology; let me say this right now that if you don’t know your theology you will be easy pickings for the antichrist. Because the antichrist will do miracles, too. But what he absolutely will NOT do is abide by the strict word of God. And that is how true believers will know what is of God and what is of the antichrist. One group will go into damning deception while the others will resist to the shedding of their own blood.
I would also recommend that all read my follow-up post to this one.
I hope i’m wrong but i think there’s not much Todd Bentley left up there. It’s like this guy has so many deamons packed, his eyes r gonna pop out…
let’s pray for his soul…
Shalom, to all willing to receive it… as a messianic believer, I’d like to point out that 1)Since God is perfect, and all His ways are perfect, and He is complete, lacking nothing, therefore we can trust ALL of His Word — the “Old” as well as the “New” testament; & 2)in the entire Bible, gold is used as a symbol of divinity, while silver is used as a symbol of redemption. Thus: when people have their teeth “covered” or “filled” with “gold”, then it’s a sign from haSatan the deceiver, (NOT from God) that he (Satan) is helping to deceive people with his same old lie — which still works very well — that “you can be like God”. Also: gold is dead; natural teeth are alive; and “there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is death”; while life only comes from God. Gold is softer than bone:thus, gold-filled teeth are LESS useful for chewing food (& thus sustaining life) than natural teeth. and, have any of these “ex-dead people” been seen on TV, and do their lives bear fruit that befits repentance ? Remember, the anti-messiah will sustain a fatal head wound & be (apparently) raised from the dead.
Some of the “news reports” have suspect components. For example: in describing the 21st “resurrection”, Todd reads that “the doctors were about to ‘pull the plug’ “… doctors don’t. Nurses do that. & it’s more complicated & time-consuming than just yanking a plug: IVs have to be removed, electrodes disconnected, monitors turned off, all in the right order.
At one point Todd says “something came over me, and I…” God’s Holy Spirit doesn’t overpower people. He treats us with dignity, working within and WITH us. “the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets.” we can choose to speak or keep silent; write a word, or say it aloud, etc. God allows His children to cooperate with Him, so he can later have legitimate cause to reward us. You don’t reward a robot.
May God give His children discernment.
I’ve watched this “revival” and feel an evil spirit in what I see. Todd Bentley is just another in a long line of false prophets (or profit-depends on how you look at it). Test his works against the fruit of the Spirit.
He reminds me of another false prophet, Joseph Smith. An angel appears to him (I don’t know this of Todd for fact, I’ve only read previous comments). Rakes money in. People follow him and believe what spews out of his mouth. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard more that a half sentence-and nothing backed up by Scripture. Gold teeth? Gold tablets. Feathers, gems. Special reading glasses to translate the tablets. Miracles abound? Or do they?
If he’s performed miracles, why aren’t they documented? Jesus performed miracles and I can read about them anytime I want to, in the Bible.
Todd Bentley needs the Salvation that only is through faith in the shed blood and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Like Luka said, we need to pray for his soul. He needs Jesus, as do all of the people, that he’s leading astray. Will that be his legacy? Like the millions of lost who follow the “teachings” of Joseph Smith, or who followed Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heavens Gate, the Family of God, etc….
Once we accept Christ as our Savior, the Holy Spirit dwells within us and guides us. We can call God “Father”, as we become sons and daughters of God.
Go back to the basics Todd. John 3:16, For God so loved the World, that He gave His only Son. That whoever believes in Him, will not perish but have eternal life.
Definition of Contemplative Prayer that Todd Bentley says he practices on a daily basis in his book “Reality of the Supernatural World” and
Contemplative Spirituality Definition
Contemplative spirituality: a belief system that uses ancient mystical practices to induce altered states of consciousness (the silence) and is rooted in mysticism and the occult but often wrapped in Christian terminology; the premise of contemplative spirituality is pantheistic (God is all) and panentheistic (God is in all).
This practice opens you up to Kundalini the serpent of the spine which opens you up to enlightenment (see the back of your dollar bill). Muktanada (a guru) gave his grace away to his followers through shatkipat initiation laying on of hands – giving them Kundalini the serpent that sits on your spin. The danger is the kundalini arousal – Kundalini the Serpent-Fire does not discriminate. It consumes.
The Kundalini serpent/fire are archetypal symbols found in the world’s spiritual traditions. Among other things, fire signifies purification and spiritual energy.
To awaken Kundalini is to draw the Fire ” from Earth beneath,” ” from Heaven above,” so that the bodies, including the physical, become as a Rod between the two great centres. The individual, as it were, steps consciously into the space between the centres and becomes charged with the interplay of force, with Kundalini.
Could this be where the fire that Todd Bentley is passing on!
I believe if we would get our eyes off of Bentley (the outward appearance) and focus on the move of God, we will judge it as a genuine move of God. I think it is merely a tip of the iceburg as does a sweeping demonstration of His love for the people on planet Earth by healing all their diseases. The great thing about God, He never asks permission on how He moves, where He moves or upon whom He uses. He’s sovereign. For a great read check out “A Step Into Deliverance” by T. Pugh. It’s a riveting autobiography about one pastor’s battle with the spirit of Jezebel.
Ray,
Problem is, the signs and wonders don’t exist apart from the people are in the midst of them. Remember, the lawless one does signs and wonders, too. He remains lawless and the signs and wonders are linked to him.
The fact that the apostles did miracles was part of the revelation that they came from God on His behalf. Yes, God did the miracles, but He did them through them as a testament to the apostle’s veracity as witnesses for Him.
So no, we can’t divorce the signs and wonders from the people in the middle of this.
its all true the bentley thing has changed my life, i feel loved and wonder when i’m at his feet, i feel god like and mighty under his preaching. todd bentley is a savior to a dieing world.
NOT! LOL
boy did i have you there! sorry, anyways its as simple as pie, if it dosent rely on scripture, then its false. peroid. its true. godly repentance is focused on the real jesus. anything else is a worldly repentance and will lead people to false conversion. the whole of todd’s preaching is filled with nonbiblical truth! and honest people will suffer by getting on a band wagon to hell.
I left the charismatic church because of the lakeland revival. It has been traumatising but good. This is no means bashing the charismatic faith but it is bad that most charismatics go into any ‘sign or wonder’ blindfolded. I am now searching for bibllical churches. It put me off charismania completely. I devoted my life to the charismatic church.. it is unfortunate that it had to come to this but I feel safer not being involved with the hype. For ex charismatics who need support: http://www.discernment4truth.blogspot.com it’s not to bash charismatics but to help others going through a very traumatic time to recover from the blow of a devastating experience in the charismatic church.
Dee,
I suspect that what you came out of was a “charismaniac” church and not a charismatic one. The difference is extreme. To bash churches that are charismatic and have solid teaching and discernment in a quest to distance yourself from charismania is wrong. Don’t make the mistake of tossing out genuine charismata because charismaniacs ruined the real reality of the Holy Spirit by substituting a dog and pony show.
I believe it is a very good article and very true. Too much occultism in the church. We either stand on truth and not experience.
Samantha,
Yes, the mimicking of some occult practices blows my mind because so many people who are into charismania seem to be overly attuned to avoiding anything that reeks of the demonic, yet there they go practicing rituals and things that smack of demonic practice! It’s bizarre.
Why I said what I said is because I’ve been in ministry for many years and have a ministry and know there are good charasmatic churches out there. I do know the agenda behind Lakeland and know some of the folks are not true christians and brought into the charasmatic movement, new age. I also know the deception with NAR Apostle/Prophet movement and IHOP.
Check out http://www.itidings.info/newage.html
Several of us did extensive research on these folks and also several others put that website together to expose what is happening.
I was involved with the movement back in the 90’s Toronto, Brownsville and Rodney Howard Brown and paid dearly for being involved with demonic spirits.
Having a deliverance ministry for years, I’ve seen an increase of occult spirits on people. Especially now with so much coming into the body of Christ calling it godly when it is mixed.
I still love the Charasmatic church and the gifts but more careful today of who lays hands on me and so on and so forth.
How many people lost friends over Lakeland Revival? Was there something different about this spirit that people received? I know I lost friends (trying to stay neutral) and still got hit hard, and even lost my church just because we showed them Todd Bentley’s book that proved what he was into. He actually said what he was into in one of his books.
They saw the truth but it was like a trumpet was blown to move forward and preparing for the transformation of change (becoming supernatural beings – no more need for repentance) and being part of the army to bring in the Christ Kingdom on earth and not believing in rapture. Read on the web latter day rain and you will see what I’m saying.
I live in the bible belt and have seen a change with many churches in my area.
I don’t think I have ever cried for the body of Christ like I did with this one. My heart was grieved with the division and hatred.
I even grieved and prayed for Todd Bentley, which I believe was influenced by some dangerous people that lead him the wrong way which brought in new age stuff into his life.
We need to be praying for God to bring healing on both sides for those who opposed or agreed with the movement.
You see what I see that these people believe they have to put together an army of Apostle/Prophets and that God needs their help to establish the kingdom on earth and that means cleansing the earth of those who will not give up old doctrine. To me they think they will be helping to bring Christ to earth when they will truly be bringing in the Beast of religion.
The Apostles and true Disciples of Jesus always lead people to a relationship with Jesus. The focus and purpose of their ministry was to glorify our Lord. I think we all need to pray and seek God’s Holy Spirit and pray for wisdom. Because the time is short, and our enemy knows it. We can fire words of critisism at each other, but does that glorify our Lord? The need for unity is so important right now. Because the world is watching us tear each other down. Who does that bring glory to? Jesus must be first in ALL things! Let our words be humble and full of His love. We all have sinned and fallen short, lets build up the Kingdom of God, and not tear it down!
The scary thing is that there is much division amongst different denominations. I am shocked that so many people have different views. I asked a Jew who believed in Jesus what His doctrine was, he put it simply, : We preach Jesus. And we stick to Jesus and what he did for us on the cross.
So we have to keep things simple.
However I honestly believe that we are to say away from strange things happening. When I came to a point of being too embarrased to invite friends and family to my church, it made me realise that the church I was going to was wrong. I want change in my life. I want to see the fruits of the spirit which is peace, joy, long suffering and so forth. I don’t find falling on the floor or laughing uncontrollably changing me.
I see prayer and reading the bible incredibly important. This is a race, not a sit back and laugh or sit back and fall and all will be good. It just does not make sense to me now. I used to see things differently, I really believed that all the ‘feeling’ was good. Faith is believing without seeing. I don’t need to see miraculous stuff in order to believe. I just need my bible. Period and I must stand on what Jesus did on the cross. If we put our focus more on the miraculous than we do on the cross of Jesus, then we are in a very dangerous place.
Mark 14: 21
“Then, if anyone says to you, “look, here is the Messiah!” or, ‘look there he is!” – do not believe him, For false Messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will perform miracles and wonders in order to deceive even God’s chosen people, if possilbe. Be on your guard. I have told you everything before the time comes.
Dan…..and all, really !
I followed a link to a a utube clip of Todd Bentley laughing with his audience, and relating how” God told him” to kick an old lady in the face…..and “immediately she was healed”. In a previous clip….I watched as he kicked a man i the stomach on stage, who had colon (?) cancer……and again, said “God told him to do it”.
A celebrated man with a prayer and prophetic ministry of over 20 years…..a prophet even…..discusses on the front page of his website how in:
“these next 90 days at Freedom Church is for the brooding of the Holy Spirit, the birthing of the “baby Moses movement”, and the maturation of the “baby” until he can no longer be hidden from the world…….” etc.
A year ago, a young brother in the Lord whom I worked with, sheepishly related how a larger branch of ‘Destiny Church’ here in New Zealand (another city)…..became alerted to the fact that the young worship leader in the same fellowship, who had rapidly rose to the position, was secretly an active and functioning Satan Worshiper, whose mission was to destroy from within, the corporate life of the church. Of all the people in this fellowship…..none had discernment…..or eyes to pierce the veil and see this scenario until well down the track. It had to be conveyed by word of mouth !!
There are common threads in all of these examples…..which in all probability are only the tip of the discovered iceberg. No true seers with the vision of the spirit and eyes to see……to sound a loud and clear warning in amongst these fellowships. So many, many people….”Spirit filled…..yet so few, Spirit led. Where are those Elijahs and Jeremiahs to ‘step out’ the modern day equivalents of the prophets of Baal ? For all that is celebrated in ‘charismatic’ fellowships around the globe……there are so few to stand in our midst and reveal that which is truly holy; for I can say as a result of years of futile searching, that such a knowledge within the spirit of God’s people…..is all but lost to them. Many seem bereft of any serious degree of the discernment needed to reveal…..both the Holy……and the Unholy, and lay forth the clear distinction between the two.
Oh that God would prepare each of us to be ready as the prepared bride of Christ……having cleansed each of us and removed all our rags.
I know there have been many satantist who have come into the church along with New Agers. It was set years ago to do this.
Really it extends from the Illuminatis which plan most events such as WW I WW II and now WWIII is already set. They had stages to tear down a society and their last stage was to infiltrate the church so that they will loose discernment and not be able to discern the antichrist. We are at the last stage of society before the rest to happen.
Hi Samantha….
I’m not that familiar with the Illuminati…..or the way they work. I have (indirectly….and maybe….directly ?) had something to do with them, and someone who seems to have been on the receiving end of their…..ways ! But I wonder, if you might be giving them way too much credit for WW 1 and 2…..and 3 ? Such things of magnitude may be perceived as being the product of Illuminati social engineering, and I can see how this would be perceived so by many. But this perception, tends to remove their most secret thoughts…..and efforts on their part…..from the authority and ultimate control, of the one who is….and always will be….King.
Like you….I was always impressed, and to some degree terrified, by the apparent stronghold that many powerful people with ruthless agendas, seemed to have in both society, and in the church. Call them…..iluminists, or Masonic Lodge, it really doesn’t matter the title that they take upon themselves. But Almighty God (and I mean that in every sense of the word), laughs at their deepest efforts…..and plans. And as the bible says, there are moments in history when the most powerful actually think (in their drunkeness of power)…..that God himself cannot see or know their plans and ways !! How foolish is that ! ?
Blessings….as you seek to follow the one true shepherd of your soul.
Ken.
Hi Ken,
I agree. God laughs at their efforts. I heard on the news a few days ago, that scientists have created a way to ‘prove’ the big bang. These scientists who have spent years studying think they are so clever but in essence, they look foolish! Their plans to prove their cleverness will only prove how shameful they are. So called professors have absolutely no wisdom at all. Those in authority who choose to disregard God and His Might are like the blind leading the blind.
Hi Ken,
I agree. God laughs at their efforts. I heard on the news a few days ago, that scientists have created a way to ‘prove’ the big bang. These scientists who have spent years studying think they are so clever but in essence, they look foolish! Their plans to prove their cleverness will only prove how shameful they are. So called professors have absolutely no wisdom at all. Those in authority who choose to disregard God and His Might are like the blind leading the blind.
Mathew 7:22
” Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in they name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you;depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
MY RESPONSE TO A CRITIC OF SUCH MOVES OF GOD.
Hi Andrew Storm, please were you at anytime a practicing member of the New Age Movement & did you ever use or study the said New Age Handbook that you have so readily quote? Your jaundiced position and that of your fellow traveler on Tod Bentley and the Florida Revival is akin to the same position taken by the Pharisees when they witnessed the manifestations of Jesus Christ. Their informed response or interpretation of the healings & testimonies following Christ’ ministry was that He is demonized & the miracles were an offshoot of his satanic roots. However when the Samaritan woman, was told about her life, she responded by saying, that Christ Must have the Spirit of God in Him, for no man could know her life’s story except if God revealed them to that person. This is a woman that supposedly has no root in Abraham!
Andrew Storm, & all the nay sayers, please stay at home and criticize what’s happening in Florida as a sure sign of your deeming sight (ELI’s Lights Out Annointing). Use biblical passages to prove that Tod & all the people of God pressing in are in error, not surprising, Satan also used the bible during the temptation…”for it is written, He shall give His angels guard over you…”
Another traveler said that God only speaks via his Word as seen in the bible, but he spoke from heaven during the transfiguration saying …”this is my beloved son…” and before then, there was no record of that word in the Torah. The New Testament testifies about the word & the laws God gave in the Torah.
Rev Fredrick from NC, the Holy Spirit is neither a feeling nor a falling, and the Holy Spirit can manifest any how, and in anyway, as fire, as electric shock, as whatever. You may not even feel a thing, though the woman with the issue of blood “felt in herself”. If God said lay hands, go right ahead, if He says kick, push, Bam or whatever… once it is God that said it, He will manifest Himself in the action!
Why on earth do you guys, pastors, disciples & whatever name/title you all go by, find it hard to understand and accept the ministry of angels? Paul said …”for an angel of God spoke to me during the night…”, and an angel assisted Peter out of prison, angels were present during Jesus’ ministry on earth (back in the day). Angels, have names, God has a name, and He revealed his name to us, He also told us the name of His Son- Christ, and some prophets and judges in the Torah (principally Moses) gave us the names of some angels: Gabriel, Michael… so what is the problem if a minister of God, says to us that an angel appeared to him to commission the work given to him, and the Angel identified himself by name EMMA? Why do you have to rush into the New Age handbook, or Buddhist handbook, or Mormon handbook, or the Koran, to compare if there have been any mention of a similar name among them. Why not go further and compare the name Gabriel & Michael to the angels mentioned in these religions & shout Nay! Moses and co lied about Gabriel, or is MOSES and co greater than God in us? An angel went before Joshua, and God PROMISED to send his angels before us during our ministry… “don’t say b4 my angel that you did it or said it in error” Which angel is God referring to?
That you have had no such experience does not invalidate the experiences of other sons of God whose hearts are perfect before him. If not then DON`T BREATHE WHAT YOU CAN`T SEE!!!
Ministries are like salvation, it is to be received or rejected. However, your rejection of it does not nullify its effectiveness. What you desire in God will be communicated to you by God through human vessels primarily: God may chose to deal directly to you through other means, HE IS GOD & THERE IS NO OTHER!
To Tod, He visited in one way, & to Peter Wagner, He dealt differently, and to you Andrew Storm, His dealings with you can be likened to the ‘man with the measuring rod’… ‘ …and he measured again another 1000cubit foot, and said “come hither”…
So my question to you is, How far can you go? Can you walk a thousand cubit foot into the supernatural with God or with His angel?
Whatever happened to the “eyes have not seen nor ears heard” promises of Christ. My wife introduced Tod Bentley ministry into our home; and I took the Pharisee position on Tod’s ministry, and viewed him with mixed feeling/opinion. I was of course careful not to wrongly judge him. Several salient issues befuddled my mind, for one, tattoo ministers were not common place, and this Jean & T-shirt thing in the pulpit was equally different, so I folded my hand & watched. The same way you guys are watching, but wrongfully judging the oil upon the life & ministry of this servant of God, judging another man’s servant.
Some of us religiously claim to rather follow God and never man, well for your information, Paul commanded his listeners to ‘be ye followers of me, just like I follow Christ’ Yes it is true that you are ultimately a God chaser, HOWEVER, there are leadership God has raised in midst of you, so follow them. THEY SHALL NOT BREAK THEIR RANKS, THERE ARE NO INDEPENDENTS IN THIS GOD’S BUSINESS, YOU ARE EITHER A REPUBLICAN, OR A DEMOCRAT (excuse my French).
The Israelites had the Torah, BUT God also gave them Judges, they read the Torah diligently, but God still went ahead to institute & ordain the Levetical priesthood.
This can be explained as ‘the focus of the foci’, meaning that as you follow God reading His Torah, God is equally raising governmental authorities in the midst of you, that will teach, help you discern more accurately, prophesy for a release of faith, plant, pull down and establish patterns. (!)
This brings us to †˜the eyes have not seen, many sided wisdom of God’. The fact that we have no account of such experience in the bible does not invalidate the out working of the spirit of God. We must come to terms with the truth that there are mantles in Heaven whose operation has NEVER been witnessed on planet earth! Of course we saw in revelation that the four horse men are still going to ride. That’s a strange mantle, never before seen, and never again after that. The book of Joel described such movement as…”the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generation…”!!
So guys open your ridiculous little minds up, and get ready for more challenging encounters by God. Get ready for new moves of God that will make you a lot more bitter & critical or make a believer out of you.
I now whole heartedly believe that Tod Bentley is a fundamentally intrinsic part of this new wave …they do not break ranks, they do not push one another, everyone marches in his own column…before them… the stars diminish their brightness…”!!! (who are these stars that are diminishing?)
That’s were we are now, the end time army, a strange army, a regimented army, men that has hungered and thirsted after righteousness, and their hunger has birthed several other hungry disciples globally.
Tod is hungry & thirsty, Tod and his fellow travelers are pushing into strange things in righteousness, stuff some of us have not really seen, but have only heard about.
In conclusion, remember Christ admonition to his disciples: Mat 10:24-25 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household (e.g. Tod Bentley)?
So Andrew believes in Angel Emma? gold star dust too? hmmm I dont’ need to debate this one. I prayed about it.. I am at peace 🙂 I know one thing is that many will come and perform miraculous signs and even deceive the elect – if that were possible.
I saw this Todd Bentley guy on utube.Todd Bentley is a man in need of prayer.I just can’t believe any person in there right mind,would call this a revival.Ingid Schluter said and i quote,”The Holy Spirit alone draws through spirit empowered preaching.Such preaching is absent today in our prayless,man-centered churches,and thats why pasters are reduced to becoming jesters and exhibitionists to drow a crowd”,on quote.(Zechariah 4:6) Not by might nor by power,but by my Spirit,says the Lord Almighty.steve
Yes, some of you discerned what happened in Florida. We are the body of Christ and yes there can be error and I’m sure I’ve been in error.
When we see error with a brother, it is a time to pray for them and keep our mouths shut. I would have to say the revival was the most hurtful thing I’ve ever seen.
I had a lot of attacks from people who went and when I said I’m not for sure about this, got attacked greatly. I saw the body of Christ split right in half and saw prophecies of coming war referenced in the book The Quest by Rick Joiner.
I never was grieved in my life. It did cause me to do extensive research and I came up with my own opinion of what is happening in the body of Christ.
It is a lot of selfishness and a lot of raping the body – money.
The church is suppose to be a family helping one another but I didn’t see that.
We all need to be doing the great commission – leading lost souls to the Lord. Time is short and the coming of Christ is soon. The enemy is well working against the church.
Doesn’t time fly? To think it’s been two years since Lakeland. I have to say that Dan got it right. I think history will see the Lakeland “revival” as one of the greatest instances of fraud that were ever perpetrated on the church. But the thing I find really interesting, though, is the number of other charismatic leaders that endorsed Lakeland and Todd. What does this say about them? Did they all fall for Todd’s lies? Or perhaps they are also conmen…
Brian,
I wish that none of what I had said about Lakeland had come to pass. It didn’t take prophetic wisdom to see the cracks, though. Why so few bothered to even look says a great deal about the longing people in our churches have for the genuine things of God and our weakness in being able to meet that need.
Its the same thing here in Malawi, we have preachers changing titles. We have so many prophets with strange teachings.
Dan, The branches of the vine are many, some on one side of the house or wall, others on the other side; yet, meeting in the root, are all but one vine; thus all good Christians, though in place and opinion distant from each other, yet meet in Christ, the centre of their unity.
We lose sight of what we need to create.