Tim Challies posted on Facebook this quote from a book by Richard Phillips:
“One of the biggest problems in the church today is the failure of young adult men to value and pursue marriage.”
That quote really bothered me, honestly. It seems like the typical male-bashing that is so prevalent today: If something is wrong, blame men.
It takes two to tango, though, so I can’t see why the blame must always fall on men for the state of dating today.
I’ve been married since 1996, so I can’t say that I am totally up on every aspect of the Christian single scene circa 2010, but still, I can’t believe it has changed THAT much since my single days. So when I read quotes like the one from Phillips, I just have to wonder if people see the same mess I did.
When I was single…
It was almost always the woman who broke things off in a relationship. I knew a lot of single Christian guys, and they were typically the dumpee, not the dumper. These were good guys, too. They WANTED to get married. It’s just that their girlfriends didn’t—at least not to them. So just who is putting off marriage here?
While both sexes have “lists,” the lists of desirable qualities in a mate that women kept seemed to be more unrealistic than the lists of men. What made this more glaring was that as single women aged, their lists got shorter, while men’s lists tended to stay the same. So which sex is making dating harder?
I dated about a half-dozen women before I met my wife. Twice, women I dated gave me the “you’re too nice” break-up speech—only to have those two later date men who hit them. Worse, they couldn’t bring themselves to break it off with their abusers. I pray that a third of women out there are not dumping nice guys in favor of bad boys, but my experience says otherwise. What kind of message is that sending to men who are “nice”?
A man’s income is a bigger factor than single Christian women care to admit. Plenty of good, caring, honest men don’t make six figures. I’ve seen too many cases of women dropping the “poor” nice guy in favor of the loaded playboy. The outcome is self-fulfilling. So which sex is succumbing to questionable motives?
This is not a post to bash single women. Still, all the culpability for the mess out there can’t be dumped solely at the feet of men.
It’s true that we seem awash in Man-Child Syndrome, with men acting like teenagers into their 30s. But at the same time, thanks to the inevitable outcomes of radical feminism, we’ve also developed this almost predatory female who wants to compete as a man in those elements of life we’ve always associated with manhood. Can anyone claim that THAT’S an improvement for women?
Here’s the even worse problem: quotes like those from Richard Phillips. Why? Because the fixes are not those most Christians are willing to examine. We can complain all we want about the state of male-female relationships today, but the fixes do not amount to telling one sex or the other to get their collective acts together. The problems run deeper.
Here’s an example:
Today, young men must compete for jobs against young women. But the playing field is not level. Every study I have seen in the last few years shows that companies prefer to hire women. Men are also cowed by the threat of sexual harassment lawsuits. Having been in several workplaces where a male coworker was sued for sexual harassment, I can tell you that the effect is chilling, even on those men who would never consider saying or doing anything deemed harassment. I remember commenting to a woman I worked with that I thought she had a great fashion sense and was a smart dresser; she responded, “And just what do you mean by that?” Her response taught me that it was better to not talk to her at all.
This adds up in the lives of men. It amplifies the so-called Battle of the Sexes, a battle that didn’t exist prior to the 1960s and the rise of radical feminism. As men are most often the loser in this battle, this contributes to the Man-Child Syndrome.
I also believe that the way we prepare young people for the work world today exacerbates the problems. Beyond men and women competing for the same jobs, we use college as an excuse for job prep. We throw young people into a largely unsupervised college environment, expect them to put off marriage for four years, expect them them put off marriage for more years after graduation while they “establish their careers” (and justify the massive costs of a college education), and then we wonder why dating and mating is a giant mess.
Yet what Christian leader out there today is willing to question the way we work, earn money, and get an education? Instead, we find a convenient whipping boy, the man-child, and tell him to act like a man—when our entire system is geared for preventing him from doing so.
As I see it, the problems are systemic and difficult, which is why it’s easier for Christians to simply ignore them as we pursue our careers and gather for ourselves the only thing that seems to matter in life: money. Telling men to act like men doesn’t get us anywhere unless we’re prepared to make the changes necessary to mold them into our professed ideal. And those changes may mean revising every aspect of our society and culture.
I wrote about my suggestions for how we Christians can address the issue of singleness in the Church in Singleness: Radical Answers for a Harsh Reality. I also talked about how we Christians are not seeing the bigger picture in dating and mating in The Truth About Women (and Men).
I wish more Christians were willing to look hard at masculinity and femininity breakdowns in our society today and pose genuine solutions that challenge the way we live. If we don’t, how can we expect different outcomes?
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“One of the biggest problems in the church today is the failure of young adult men to value and pursue marriage.”
Dan, I would like to focus in on the “church today” part of this quote.
Do you know if there ever been studies from previous generations that show christian or churched people groups that have significantly lower vice rates or social ills than the culture at large? Are we kidding ourselves that we should be expecting this? I mean, in the 50′s I’m sure the overall percentage of the culture was lower vice rates, but my gut says that they were probably the same percentage as the world then too. Just as today’s studies show we are no different. I suspect this is because people are people and while we may be redeemed, most of us still carry a lot of baggage around. (Take a look at the Corinthian church.) I ,and we all, would like to think otherwise, but I’m not too sure anymore.
Mike,
I can’t give you 2000 years of data to tell you how effective or ineffective things have been. All I know is that in my lifetime there has been an obvious slide. And the obvious slide occurs because fewer and fewer people end up truly committed to virtue. Premarital sex has always existed, but I would pretty much stake my life on it having been lower in times when the nation was committed to biblical ideals (even if not everyone of that age was born again). Even if the only deterrent was societal shame, at least societal shame existed. I don’t think you can make that same claim today. I mean, I just read a story about a woman who twittered her abortion for all her Twitter feed readers.
I mean, I just read a story about a woman who twittered her abortion for all her Twitter feed readers.
Well, they call them “Twits” for a reason…
Thanks for the post Dan. As a 32 year old single guy, I have heard quite a mix of teaching and discussion on this topic.
I used to visit Boundless (a Focus on the Family site for young singles), but eventually had to stop reading the articles…the guilt and burden that they put on single men is just wrong. There are even some authors (“marriage mandators”) suggesting that men only become fully adult if they marry! Yikes…
Most of my christian single guy friends do want to get married, but it can be difficult finding the right fit. Also, the burden to be a good provider is especially challenging for men at this time. If you are out of work, should you even consider dating?
The young adult pastor at my church has a more balanced view on things; he holds marriage and singleness up as equally good callings and challenges both single men and women to grow in maturity to become worthy marriage partners.
Jeff,
I think we should honor people who have been given the grace to remain single.
I also think that by buying into the world’s economic system, which encourages delaying marriage long past the sane point, we have created a real sexual disaster. I’d like to see us encourage more young people to marry earlier, while also working harder to ensure we support them more than we have as a Christian body.
I have to echo what Jeff said about Focus on the Family’s Boundless website as well as their Boundless Line blog. Their attitude toward single men leaves a lot to be desired.
As a recent example, contributor Motte Brown posted a video sermon by Mark Driscoll on the Boundless Line blog last November. In the teaching, Driscoll somehow came up with five criteria defining manhood, including getting married and having children, from a sermon text of Luke 1:80. How Driscoll can derive such criteria from a Scripture text concerning John the Baptist eludes me.
Boundless has also featured articles by authors such as Alex Chediak, Debbie Maken, Albert Mohler, and Candice Watters whose attitude toward single men is similar to that of Richard Phillips.
Some years ago I made several financial contributions to Focus on the Family. They won’t get another dime of my money until they either shake up Boundless or close it down.
Seriously, it’s Driscoll, are you really surprised?
The male bashing by the way is simply being carried over from westernized culture, which elevates women to a status of near deification. There was a warning about this in Scripture but I can’t remember the exact verse (it was in Isaiah).
I’ve been out of the loop for years now so I don’t know what’s going around in Christian circles, but I’m not surprised that the treatment of single men isn’t much different from the world. Real incentive for me to go back to church, by the way, NOT. LOL
“One of the biggest problems in the church today is the failure of young adult men to value and pursue marriage.”
How about the failure to pursue God? How about lack of faith (fear)? Unfruitfulness? Pursuit of ambition/money above service and community? I can think of so many more critical problems that we (individually and corporately) face. If this (failure of men to pursue marriage) was one of our biggest problems, I think we’d be in pretty good shape
Yep.
I’m with Jeff. I was thinking along those lines when I read the quote. But also that his quote is completely unbiblical. Paul and Jesus both said it’s better to be single. Why don’t they ever teach singles that?
I’m struggling to follow the argument of this article, quite honestly. You do not agree with Tim Challie’s quote but seem to instead be replacing the “young adult men” part with “young adult women” or “young adults” in general. Correct me if I’m wrong here.
First, I don’t see the marriage vs. single issue to be one of the biggest problems in the church. What annoys me most is the emphasis Christians place on marriage, as if singles are never quite mature, or that they do not have the ability to be content at all. This just isn’t true. Some of the most wonderful people I know are single.
I also do not think that expecting people to “put off” marriage until they are through college is an issue, either. People need to put off marriage until they are mature enough to be able to handle it. Singleness is a wonderful time of life, and it should not be rushed through only to end up in a bad marriage. It is not easy for young adults to be able to maintain a marriage straight out of high school coming from broken families and lack of family support so common today.
Much of what this article talks about is common in secular circles today, but among Christians there are so many young women who are trying their hardest to be respectful. It is equally hard for both genders, you have to know that. I know how it is for women who have horrible relationships with their fathers and just don’t realize how to act. So muany of the issues in this article stem from broken relationships within families.
Merry,
The arguments:
1. Men are not solely at fault for this mess.
2. Fixing the mess does not consist of telling men to be more masculine and women more feminine.
3. The source for the problem is systemic—it is in our society and culture. To fix it, Christians must provide countercultural answers and practical ways of making those answers reality.
4. Because fixing the problems will be difficult, few people/churches will undertake the fix.
5. Lather, rinse, repeat.
In my Singleness post (linked in the article), I talk about ways we can fix the mess.
…among Christians there are so many young women who are trying their hardest to be respectful.
Respectful where, China? Russia? Saudi Arabia? Certainly not here, where women are encouraged to treat marriage as a career option.
Lincoln,
You sound bitter. Contrary to your apparent beliefs, there really are good Christian women around. Please don’t stereotype, and please don’t turn this discussion into a woman-bashing session.
Awwww merry, did I hurt your wittle feeeelings? *rolls eyes*
Welcome to the world of what it’s like to be stereotyped and bashed on a regular and relentless basis. Imagine what men must endure then, and yet here you’re already crying uncle over a wayward comment. Poooor you.
You’ll forgive me if I don’t take your word for it, being that you’re a woman and that women just wubs to lie till the sun goes down. I remain unconvinced that there are any single Christian women left who even know the meaning of the word virtuous or read past the first chapter of Genesis.
That’s the reality. Deal with it.
You’ll forgive me if I don’t take your word for it, being that you’re a woman and that women just wubs to lie till the sun goes down.
Under Shari’a, they don’t. They don’t dare.
OK…I am an expert on this one. Here is the major problem. We segregate our singles from the marrieds. And what do you think this does psychologically? It sends a strong message to the singles that they are NOT valued in the church (although today they are valued in the society), and the only way to get that value is to get married, whether you are ready or not. Thankfully, the younger adults today are not falling for this and are not joining church “single groups.” Also, their married friends do not wish to separate from them and so most churches today have single groups (if they have them at all) from 45 on up, because sadly, older marrieds still want to ostracise singles. But sadly, those churches that don’t have single groups almost always give the same feeling that marrieds are #1, and singles are “second bananas.”
I am glad that young men and women aren’t marrying young as today young adults are much more immature than they were in previous generations. Immature adults shouldn’t be getting married, and I take offense at all of these married people telling singles they need to get married early. This sounds exactly like the “old” game Idescribed above, namely, “as a Christian, you are no good if you are single. I attended a church that had excellent gepgraphical home groups where singles were welcomed. You couldn’t believe in one year the effect this had on the singles. Our singles’ group matured greatly and good marriages began to happen after most of our group were involved in these home groups. Oh by the way, that was Jack Hayford’s church, The Church on the Way. It was one of the only churches I attended (and believe me, Ive been in scads of church single groups) that really treated their singles like respected adults. And, the singles rose to that expectation.
So, in summary, the attitudes of church leaders MUST change and show themselves as examples of good attitudes toward singles or this hurtful sinlge dysfunctionalism will go on and on into the future.
Something I noticed in the Eighties, when the rest of the Cal Poly Gang were getting married off:
Marrieds do NOT associate with Singles. Period.
My writing partner (a burned-out preacher-man from across the country) is an exception — I keep telling him how odd it is that he, a Married, still associates with Singles like me. Understand, where I came from, this was unheard of.
It sends a strong message to the singles that they are NOT valued in the church (although today they are valued in the society), and the only way to get that value is to get married, whether you are ready or not.
And you don’t go where you know you’re not wanted.
Headless,
I agree. I’ve written about this issue in the past. One of the worst problems we have in our churches IS our separating singles and married.
Only reason I would go to a single group is to find me a babe. It’s the only place where my odds somewhat improve on finding a like-minded girl, and I suspect my attitude is usually the prevalent one, hence the failure of such single groups in general. If I wanted to do outreach or contribute to the community, then I would do just that, join an outreach or community group, NOT join a singles group.
Only reason I would go to a single group is to find me a babe.
Then you’re going to be rejected. Every time. They already have a Perfect Boyfriend, only his name is Jesus instead of Edward (sparkle sparkle sparkle).
I’m going to try SoulGeek instead.
Dan, I can relate all too well to several of the items you discussed in your post.
I’ve always been the dumpee in every relationship I’ve had. I’ve yet to initiate a breakup.
I can also relate to what you said about nice guys. The first woman who dumped me later married a man whom I met once at a social gathering. He was both drunk and profane. I still shake my head as to why she chose someone like that for a husband.
What you said about single Christian women judging a man by his income is also spot on. I worked for a company for more than 20 years. My salary was modest and wouldn’t have been enough to support a family where I live in metropolitan Washington, DC, but at least it was steady work. That wasn’t satisfactory enough for some of the single Christian women I’ve met. And now that I’ve been unemployed for more than a year after my position was eliminated, I’m considered to be of even less value.
My 50th birthday is now in my rear-view mirror. I still hold out some faint hope that I’ll marry someday, but that hope is fading fast.
As for today’s young single Christian men, I have never met any in my church who could be considered overgrown adolescents. But I don’t envy the conditions they face today.
I can also relate to what you said about nice guys. The first woman who dumped me later married a man whom I met once at a social gathering. He was both drunk and profane. I still shake my head as to why she chose someone like that for a husband.
Simple. Nothing triggers the “OOOOOO! MY SOULMATE! HE’S SO (gasp) EXCITING!!!!!” in a woman like a User and Abuser.
Funny about how that works — you get to hate women so much that the only thing you can think of doing is Use and Abuse, and suddenly you’re Irresistable.
My 50th birthday is now in my rear-view mirror. I still hold out some faint hope that I’ll marry someday, but that hope is fading fast.
And once hope is gone, there is only Payback.
I wonder why Islam hasn’t used this to appeal for converts? After all, in an Islamic Theocracy you’re pretty much guaranteed a Virgin Bride who WILL Stay Faithful — or else.
Headless,
I wish I could understand what causes some women to go after bad boys. There doesn’t seem to be any pattern to it. Psychologists will say it was a distant father or a need to get back at controlling parents, but I’ve seen close fathers and wise parents get burned by a daughter who goes after the bad boys. That’s especially true in families with multiple daughters and only one daughter acts out that way.
People are complex. Who knows the human heart except for God? We don’t even understand ourselves.
All I can say is if women were not like that, I might now be celebrating my 20th anniversary with a six-foot-one cuddly amazon instead of another year alone as a 54-year-old virgin. But I wasn’t “Exciting” enough. So much about when they tell you they’re also a virgin and are also saving themselves for marriage.
I’m now at the point where I can think of a woman as capable of virtue or chastity only if she is visibly NOT human. (And I’m NOT talking four-leggers! More like Disney’s Maid Marian or her distant descendants in Fantastic Mr Fox. I believe there’s a passage from Lewis on that exact subject somewhere in Out of the Silent Planet.)
They go after bad boys with the intent of changing them into good guys. They make it their mission and purpose in life. A good, decent guy doesn’t offer the allure of a “project” they can work on.
The other attraction is the aloofness of men. Women are turned off by guys who treat them like queens, preferring men who are aloof instead. The more apathetic, the more meh, I could care less if you live or die, the more it attracts them.
I don’t think it’s a matter of people being complex.
I second the comments about Boundless. They are in pretty tight with all things SG which has alot of problems.
Back in my AG’s and non denoms of the 70′s I was taught pretty early on to follow Christ with your whole heart and he will bring someone along who can keep pace with you every step of the way. Well I also am 40′s something and yet to meet him. Sexual ethics in the church are terrible. Falling in that area already tells me about that person’s maturity . Are they branded ? No of course not but they aren’t for me.Which seems to be ALOT of men today ( and women )
Where are all the second and third generation christians anyway? I rarely met men like this !! If he can ski,bike and paddle pray him my way ! Hah LOL. It’s not easy at all but I’d rather keep waiting.
Sonya, by “SG” are you referring to Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM)? For Boundless is heavily involved with them. Boundless editor Ted Slater was an SGM member at one time; I don’t know if that’s still the case.
Two of Boundless’ regular contributors are highly prominent members of SGM. Joshua Harris is pastor of Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland, the denomination’s mother church. Carolyn McCulley worked in the denomination’s Maryland headquarters for a number of years.
Considering how controversial SGM is – some former members describe SGM as cult-like or a cult – one would think that Boundless and Focus on the Family would want to steer clear of them so as not to damage their own reputations. Then again, it may be too late.
Dan, I apologize if this post is off-topic.
Tim Challies’s quote from Rich Phillips is ironic considering the misogynist overtones of Scripture (not that the verses are in fact misogynistic, it just appears that way) especially in Ecclesiastes. We are told that for every thousand righteous men, there is only one righteous woman in that same bunch, if even that.
It seems to me the primary perpetrators of evil in our increasingly feministic society are women, not men. The courts favor women, while our laws give women special status in almost every aspect of their lives. Women can also false accuse men of rape and destroy their lives with absolutely no risk of consequence. The entertainment industry also constantly denigrates and insults men at every turn. How could this relentless bombardment of male bashing not seep into thinking of even well intentioned women?
Personally, I’ve given up on the idea of marriage. I have accepted that there is simply no single woman out there left that is worth my time and aggravation. Who can find a virtuous woman? Certainly not I. As a result I have become very bitter about it, but I am slowly learning to accept that Paul was right, I am indeed better off single. Of course women who see this will say the reason I haven’t found anyone is because I’m caustic and bitter. They have absolved and divorced themselves of any accountability in regards to their despicable behavior whatsoever. It is ALWAYS the man’s fault. I’m single? That’s my fault and my fault alone. Women are but darling cherubs of light to which it is impossible for them to do any wrong.
Marriage? Please. Not for this newly enlightened soul.
Lincoln,
I did something to your comment that I don’t normally do: I edited the beginning. The person you were referencing is not that way, and I did not think the imagery was edifying.
I think that men and women each have their own societal challenges.
It’s funny, but when I gave up on marriage and concerned myself with other pursuits for the sake of the Kingdom, that’s when I met my wife. I wasn’t bitter about giving up, though. I found it freeing in a way.
Marriage has its own challenges, and I think we sometimes fall into a “grass is always greener” mentality, whether we are single or married. Paul is right, the married man does lose opportunities to serve God in a more devoted way. I know that each day brings all sorts of craziness that must occupy my time that I never had to face as a single. And all of it encroaches on my ability to serve the King and the Kingdom.
In the end, everything we have from God is a gift. It’s what we do with what He has given us that matters.
I don’t give two flying leaps what you think is edifying or not, and fortunately you will not be able to edit what I say on my own blog, which I promise will be a LOT more incendiary. Toodles!
Let me make a comment about the “lack of righteous women.” I speak from my own observations, so I am definitely not trying to assign any imprimatur.
I believe that women, in general, are more spiritually minded than men. They seem to be more sensitive to things of the Spirit.
That said, my experience has been that the people who seem to go deepest in the Lord are more often men. So while women outnumber men in their faith in the Lord, the men who are on fire for God seem to burn more fiercely.
Why is that? I think that the way God made men equips them with more of a “do or die” mentality that enables them to buck “the system” and attain those deep wellsprings. We also are more willing to allow this of men, too, while we tend to expect women to manage what the men drop in order to get to that deeper place. It may not be fair, but at the same time I think that women have no rebelled against picking up that slack that let’s their men get to that deep place, because women profit from having men on fire.
When I was flushing a grand down the toilet on various Christian (TM) Dating services, I noticed a pattern in a lot of the women there: “Jesus is my Edward Cullen!”
The Christian women already had the Perfect Boyfriend and Perfect Husband — his name was Jesus. It was like Medieval Bridal Mysticism without the highly-erotic language. Or “just like Twilight fangirls, except Christian (TM)!”
Around 20 years ago, when I was still listening to a Christian music station, there was this Christian love song on the playlist that illustrated my point. Allegedly a Christian girl gushing over her boyfriend/fiance, what fragments I remember went like this:
“You’ll always be my Number Two –
Because JEESUS is Number One in my life
So Second Place will have to do!”
Tip for all women: NEVER tell a guy that he’s second place in your life. Especially if first place is another male.
And the “What I’m Looking For” on the dating service forms was to say the least unrealistic. All Scripture, and Witnessing, and Scripture, and Church, and Scripture, and… Essentially a laundry list describing an Uber-Christian so Spiritual and Perfect that even Christ Himself couldn’t measure up. Never mind a mere mortal like me, an aging ex-kid genius who wasn’t wrapped all that tight to start with.
The minute you see the name Cullen or other references to Twilight, run like the wind.
That reflects the biggest problem in the church which supersedes everything else. Christianity is a poorly xeroxed imitation of the world’s culture and philosophies. You would think reformed dudes who purpose to be regenerated would have a markedly different perspective, but instead we see dweebs like Phillips merely imitate the viewpoints of secular feminists today. If I wanted a spoonful of that I’ll just watch the Oxygren network. Or maybe Lifetime.
First, the “Jesus is my Edward Cullen” Twilight reference was original to me, to illustrate the dynamic at work. The same dynamic as in Medieval Bridal Mysticism. (In case you haven’t guessed from my other comments, I’m involved in Furry Fandom, which attracts a LOT of the “Character Obsessor” type of fanboy, and this is a variant on that.)
Christianity is a poorly xeroxed imitation of the world’s culture and philosophies.
Tell me about it. Jollyblogger coined the term “Christian Bizarro World” to describe this attitude, and I joined the Lost Genre Guild for a reason. (The same reason Jeff Gerke of the LGG started Marcher Lord Press.)
You would think reformed dudes who purpose to be regenerated would have a markedly different perspective, but instead we see dweebs like Phillips merely imitate the viewpoints of secular feminists today.
It ain’t just “the viewpoints of secular feminists”, dude. It’s EVERYTHING. Every fad that comes along, every trend and Celebrity shtick.
Such as this: One of our spies in the Guild attended a Christian (TM) Publisher’s conference last year where they claimed The Next Big Thing in Christian Fiction was — guess what? “Christian (TM) Paranormal Romance”, i.e. “Just like Twilight Except CHRISTIAN (TM)!” Guess you can’t call them Vampires, but they still have to *SPARKLE*SPARKLE*SPARKLE*.
ANOTHER CHRISTIAN (TM) KNOCKOFF, A DAY LATE AND A DOLLAR SHORT? WHEN ARE WE GOING TO SET THE TREND AND START THE FAD INSTEAD OF DOING A CHEEZY KNOCKOFF, USUALLY AROUND THE TIME THE ORIGINAL JUMPS THE SHARK?
Dan,
You speak to the quality but not the quantity of women who are spiritually minded. I don’t doubt that they can be on a more profound level, but how many are like that really? maybe a handful in each state, all over 80 years old I would suspect because by that time they finally grew up and stopped perceiving themselves as princesses.
HUC, I’ve separated myself from the CINOs so these things don’t antagonize me the way they used to, but when I do unfortunately find myself in near proximity I’m a ball of fire.
Of course women who see this will say the reason I haven’t found anyone is because I’m caustic and bitter. They have absolved and divorced themselves of any accountability in regards to their despicable behavior whatsoever. It is ALWAYS the man’s fault. I’m single? That’s my fault and my fault alone. Women are but darling cherubs of light to which it is impossible for them to do any wrong. — Lincoln
ISLAM promises a solution to that. Plus Payback.
Don’t you think we should be offering a better solution?
Honestly, I don’t want payback, I’d be more content to not being denigrated just because I’m single. Like say, offering discounts to singles on vacations instead of romantic packages for two. Pfftt…
Lincoln,
I hear your frustration.
Are there any seminaries in your area? There are many real great women in seminary and bible colleges. Maybe you can look into taking a night class somewhere?
The advice section on Eharmony is helpful to. The staff there write alot of good articles. There is also a blog which is helpful after each article. It’s free. :>)
Sonya,
Oh mommy, please don’t suggest anything remotely related to eHarmony, even if it’s just a few articles. I’ve gone through literally several hundred matches on there and even contemplated suing the company over my experience.
Seminaries and bible colleges might be a good idea, but I’ve spoken to a few students about the experience, they would tell me women only matriculated there to major in a FAH degree (Find A Husband), and that included a sizable amount of unsaved women. While that might seem encouraging in prospects I found that a bit unnerving instead.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I am not quite as old as you but getting there and I am a virgin also. I think that’s awesome ! It’s incredibly difficult. I actually got involved in abstinence education to encourage myself as noone else does ! You might want to look into any groups or school districts in your state that do this.
Re: your comment about ‘Jesus is my Edward Cullen’ I am afraid I have to agree with you. I’ve proably gotten that extreme myself. When you are of marraigeable age and most christian men seem rather nominal that’s how single women compensate. And it works. mostly…. if it went for our darn sex drives. That’s how we get hooked usually.
I was at a womens prayer meeting a few weeks ago and when I start hearing about all the prayer requests for unsaved husbands… ad nauseum I cringe inside. There seems to be alot of it. Dan is right. Women do benefit from on fire men but most I meet like that are in pulpits already married.
I was at a womens prayer meeting a few weeks ago and when I start hearing about all the prayer requests for unsaved husbands… ad nauseum I cringe inside.
I just thought of something that might explain this. In another comment I mentioned how I longed to hear an “I love you” that didn’t continue on to “…as a brother in Christ.” Maybe that’s part of the problem — we’ve established such a family tribal identity within the Christian singles’ groups and you don’t get the hots for your brother or sister, only for someone outside the “family”.
It’s called “exogamy” and has a biological purpose of preventing incest/inbreeding. This is a major reason for the “lure of the exotic” — if somebody is too familiar or identified as “family” instead of “other”, they’re not exotic enough to attract you. I don’t want a “sister” (even though I never had one for real), I wanted a girlfriend who could become a wife, a co-equal partner through life. And these “Unsaved husband” married women probably wanted the same. And the Christian men in their churches and singles groups were “brothers in Christ”, so they got passed over for reasons of exogamy.
Women do benefit from on fire men but most I meet like that are in pulpits already married.
Sonya, it’s a Mystery of the Universe that if you meet someone who’d make a good wife or husband for you, they’re already married to someone else. That Law of Nature has nailed me more times than you can count. There’s even songs about it, including one where a woman laments all the guys she runs across “are Married, Neurotic, or Gay!” with over-the-top examples of each in the verses.
Sometimes it’s only the sheer South Park craziness of it all (and my “Growing Up Martian” as an outsider looking in) that makes it bearable. To the point I don’t get as consistently bitter as Lincoln, and after what I’ve seen and been through, it’d be so easy to get as bitter as Lincoln.
Instead, I write fantasy, and a lot of the more spontaneous stories (the ones that tend to write themselves) get pretty DARK.
Yep, I’m bitter alright, I must have just been born that way, that depravity thing and all.
It certainly couldn’t have been the 20 odd years of aggravation and trauma of dealing with Ameriskanks and a church that has turned into a schizophrenic Disneyland that made me this way. Nah, couldn’t be. So don’t mind me, I’m just an unregenerated soul who just wasn’t handpicked for salvation because God already selected enough Italians already. Carry on my enlightened and morally superior brothers in the LORD.
So don’t mind me, I’m just an unregenerated soul who just wasn’t handpicked for salvation because God already selected enough Italians already.
“That Depravity Thinng”? “Wasn’t Handpicked for Salvation”?
You were raised Calvinist/HyperCalvinist? No wonder you’re so messed up! I got my head messed up by an end-of-the-world cult back in Hal Lindsay’s heyday, and since then the Catholic Church has been doing a duct-tape repair job for around 20 years. Still not wrapped all that tight, but then I never have been.
As for “20-odd years of dealing with Ameriskanks”, I’ve been dealing with them for 30 years. As well as “enlightened and morally superior brothers in the LORD”, though not as many of these Christian Kyle’s Moms since I swam the Tiber back into Catholicism. They seem to swarm over you like chickens pecking a defective to death if you’re not Just Like Them. (Like I said, I’ve never been wrapped all that tight.)
No I have an Assemblies of God background. I’ve never been a calvinist, but every now and then I like to mock their ridiculous belief system. But that’s an argument and a bloodied fight for another day.
Ok, I think I’ve tormented Dan enough with my ornery comments here, so I’ll just politely slink away into the background now, lol
Addendum to Sonya re exogamy:
This is a biological reason for the “lure of the exotic”, where over-familiarity acts as a brake on attractiveness and the exotic Other becomes very attractive. Rabbi Boteach writes of the same phenomenon, and that retaining a sense of mystery is essential to attraction. (As a personal take on this, I’m in Furry Fandom, and a lot of the attraction for semi-human “furry ladies” (such as Mrs Fox in Fantastic Mr Fox is that they are the ultimate Exotic Outsider.)
Those women “with unsaved husbands” you write about may have rejected Christian suitors because they were Christian and thus “family”, while being attracted to those men outside because they weren’t of the Christian “Family”. Too familiar, not exotic enough.
This might partially explain the attraction of Users & Abusers — they’re sure not part of the Family!
And the paradox that crops up any time “The Christian Singles Mess” goes Open Mike night: single Christian women lament they can’t find any single Christian men and single Christian men lament the only thing they get from single Christian women is a solid string of Rejections. And I know from experience that enough unbroken string of rejections and you just don’t take the chance of getting rejected again. Lincoln took one road — bitterness and misogyny. I took another — depression and despair.
Listen, just because I hate women doesn’t mean I’m a misogynist.
… … … … O:-)
One more thought..
ANYONE who hints of a past in child abuse ,domestic violence ,dating violence,divorce,or criminality is NOT marraigable UNTIL they get ALOT of counseling. These patterns and cycles repeat themselves through the generations. Getting genuinely born again will break that. Maturity in Christ is still a better bet in choosing a partner for life.Then gifts and callings that are compatable,then looks. In that order IMO. The ‘list’ is relatively short and certainly not impossible for OUR GOD.
Set your face like a flint to do His will and He will bring someone along.Better to be single and wish you were married than to be married and wish you were single !
Rally on my friends !! You are a peculiar people. In time when you look behind you ,you will see a few work friends and family following behind.
ANYONE who hints of a past in child abuse ,domestic violence ,dating violence,divorce,or criminality…
Triggers the automatic “OOOOOOO! MY SOULMATE!” reaction in women. Especially if he also looks like he’d be dynamite in the sack.
“Just because Edward always wants to kill Bella doesn’t mean he’s abusive!”
– Twilight fan at a domestic abuse/violence seminar
Set your face like a flint to do His will and He will bring someone along.
That’s what I got told 30 years ago, by Christians — who were themselves already safely married. Want me to show you the bill of goods I bought?
Now, 30 years later, the only things I can look forward to are qualifying for the senior discount at Denny’s and getting published as an SF writer before the cancer-Langoliers catch up with me. Alone.
Lastly,
My hunch is alot of you may be watching to much TV or listening to talk at work by alot of ungodly people ( to be frank ) Don’t take your cues from culture. Get rid of cable or TV all together for a awhile.
I am single — I have now been single for over 30 years.
On churches and singleness, they know not what to do with you. They cannot relate to you, because they haven’t walked where you continually walk.
Everytime the minister would say, ‘Now husbands and wives, hold hands, look each other in the eyes and say — I LOVE YOU — we who were single felt like our limb had been lopped off.
Everytime this happens, you feel like you did something wrong — but that can’t be, as they still take my money. BUT you continue to wonder what there is about you that makes you so invisible.
It took me many years to be able to be glad that I am single. I have learned to have a greater relationship with God and the Godhead, and that works better for me than a physical one would.
I hear the pain of all single men and women, and my only advice is — ‘Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you’ Matthew 6:31.
May all of you seeking a mate, find a greater place in God first..
I would have liked to hear “I love you” without the tacked on “…as a Brother in Christ.”
I can’t tell you how disturbing this discussion has been to me. For one thing, I had to look up who Edward Cullen is, and if women today are comparing him with Christ, then we have a serious problem, Houston.
Singleness and Marriage are two issues that haven’t had enough biblical discussion in the Church. I know, one thinks that the Church today talks about little else…But I mean biblical discussion. There is far too much conversation about cultural norms and expectations, and too little discussion about God’s norms and expectations. One is more likely to hear about marriage in the context of “Pride and Prejudice” than that of Ephesians 5. A pastor may well begin reading from Ephesians, and end with roses and chocolate. Being willing to die is rarely mentioned.
And as mentioned before, the “Christlike” life is single, not married.
Are there false expectations in the dating world? Duh. The fact that there are “Christian” online dating services should give warning to how much Satan has affected Christian relationships. The Church has conveniently excused itself from a role explicitly handed to it by God. A good part of this is due to the wrong-headed emphasis the Church has put on evangelizing the very young (at the expense of youth and adults) and on the lack of discipleship at all ages. The young will not listen to the old today because the Church abandoned the practice of discipleship.
I listened to a convention speaker years ago, who spoke of “exploding the myth of romantic love in Christian dating and marriage.” It’s something to consider. Romance is soft, warm, and fleeting. Love is a hard road, long, full of troubles, and is “the greatest of these.”
Edward Cullen is romance. Jesus Christ is Love.
Choose.
For one thing, I had to look up who Edward Cullen is, and if women today are comparing him with Christ, then we have a serious problem, Houston.
Actually, it’s more like the other way round; they’re turning Christ into a Cosmic Edward Cullen, the Perfect Fantasy Boyfriend. I’d seen the pattern for decades (and been burned by it), but it wasn’t until Twilight as an example that I was able to put a name to it.
And the result to us mere mortal males is to become the poor farmer with one lamb in the story Nathan told David regarding the Bathsheba affair.
Are there false expectations in the dating world? Duh. The fact that there are “Christian” online dating services should give warning to how much Satan has affected Christian relationships.
And every Christian dating service I’ve been to has been a complete waste of time and money. The women already have their Cosmic Edward Cullen; the best us mere mortals can hope for is to become a distant Number Two and live-in ATM.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I’m almost afraid to ask, but as you got older did you ever find the desire for a woman and companionship to decrease with age? I’m wondering because I’m researching over the possibility of using drugs to suppress libido so I no longer feel any innate desire for the company of a female.
Not the desire for companionship. Especially cuddly companionship. It’s what I desired all my life but could never have. I just had a massive attack of “Ann withdrawals” last month, triggered by a picture I bought in an art show.
I’d go with the antiaphrodisiacs to kill all sexual desire — I’ve found exposure to porn does it for me (sex = disgust reaction that lasts about six months) — but that won’t kill your desire for cuddly companionship. All I can offer is to make a large circle of friends and get what companionship you can from that, knowing it won’t be the cuddly kind.
I write fantasy using romance as a major plot skeleton. Using non-human species who actually pair-bond and mate for life instead of screw like bonobos. And that helps.
Ah, I see you went the Lovecraft/Tolkien route.
I think what helps is having people with failed marriages in your life too. The constant wailing does a lot to remind me on why it’s great to be single. Best career option in that respect is to be a cop dealing with domestic calls. Fun times.
Okay, Tolkien I can understand (because Elves pair-bonded like that), but LOVECRAFT?
(Though some of the porn I’ve been exposed to in my life WAS grotesque enough to fit right into the Non-Euclidean halls of Great Cthulhu or the mindless madness piping Void of Yog-Sototh. 2D6 SAN loss, no save.)
For those who are single, here is a testimony of the type of spouse you should pray and trust God for. I hope the link embeds.
JOLLYBLOGGER
My Wife
1 day ago
I agree with Dan’s assessment of society’s attitude towards men.
Yet I’m hearing Sonya as the voice of levelheaded reason while Unicorn and Lincoln are enormously bitter and cynical.
I wanted to marry before I did so 24 years ago, but I didn’t want to marry any member of the entire female sex.
Will you two stop broadbrushing women – it makes for lazy opinion-making.
Spoken like a typical married guy who has long since been neutered by his overbearing wife. It must suck to be you.
Let me tell you something, Bob. Within one or two years after you get married, you become incapable of remembering what it’s like to be single and incapable of relating to a long-term single. I’ve seen it happen, and heard it described. No matter how long you were single beforehand, a married has no idea what it’s like to be single, and the transition is complete before your second anniversary.
That’s one of the problems trying to communicate, and Lincoln is just a lot nastier about it than I am. Whatever you say about what us singles should be or do, to us it’s going to sound totally stupid and condescending. Imagine somebody who’s starving being told by someone well-fed and fat to “just wait on the LORD” or “Be content”. While the hunger keeps gnawing at you and you see all the oh-so-delicious feast he’s stuffing into his mouth. And every time you’ve tried a mouthful, it (not you) has vomited itself out. For what’s now approaching 30 years in my case. How would you react?
That’s the best illustration I can think of at the moment.
Headless,
I can still relate to being single. I remember every last shred of my single years. And I don’t think I have any problems communicating with singles. But then, I tend to be highly reflective and empathetic, almost to a fault.
Singles also include the divorced or widowed. I never hear from them to much.
To be honest most of my girlfriends at my age are divorced. ( these are christians..now. BTW guess what brought them to Christ? )
I think they suffer some but most are so happy to be free. The widows I don’t know…
I have one married and two single grown children. Neither of my grown single children are whining about being single… There is nothing less attractive than desperation, and nothing more attractive than someone who has a purpose and goals in life. Just a hint from someone who has observed a lot (and who was single till 25 herself back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.)
Headless Unicorn Guy
Re : your comment about exogamy. It’s interesting and has some merit. However for a ‘ real ‘ christian ( which is another topic these days IMO ) who married a unbeliever.. flat out disobeyed Gods word. Period,and will suffer for it and all those who care about that couple including any pastor that approved it.
Conversion after marraige of one or both partners is another matter… but your still stuck.
I want nothing to do with it. The Song Of Solomon for someone who is the Beloved’s ‘sister’ sounds pretty hot to me. I don’t think you will have to worry about it. The few men that were christians I have been attracted to, ‘brother’ was not first and foremost in my thinking LOL. Good grief I had trouble concentrating some when they showed up !! Hah.
Sonya
A friend of mine ( who walks very close to the Lord ) realized he was totally incapable of choosing the right wife, so he prayed for the Lord to bring her to him. The Lord answered his prayer and caused him to marry ( with dreams, signs, and wonders ) a non believer, a foreigner from a different culture, Its worked out well and now 10/12 years she’s a firm believer……….are you going to tell he was disobedient ?
Can we really say who’s a ‘real’ Christian or not…….
Can we really say who’s a ‘real’ Christian or not…….
All too often that becomes a one-upmanship game where the Proof of a Real Christian becomes “whatever I do that YOU don’t” and The Unpardonable Sin becomes “whatever YOU do that I don’t”.
Then there’s the “100% dedicated to the LORD” one-upmanship game where no matter how much you’re dedicated, it’s never enough. God’s Litmus Test becomes 110%, then 200%, then 1000%, etc.
I’ve had both of them used on me, and that’s no way to live. That’s not even living.
I am maybe not the oldest or most experienced guy here, but I can say that this post is nearly spot on. I would almost say 100% spot on.
Thanks Dan for speaking out on this very underground, very sensitive and very not-spoken-of topic. I am not out to bash women or men. We both have our responsibilities. It is the man’s responsibility to lead — I get that.
However, I think many a man’s problem is they are not pressing into the Lord to discern another woman that is pressing into the Lord. I am talking complete abandonment and surrender for the Cross. Many men (and women) are loosely holding onto sound doctrine, mortification of sin, repentance and deep seeded affections for the King of Glory. This results , in my opinion and experience, in pursuit of a spouse that is partially clinging to the cross and partially clinging to sin, lust and the world. When we go for people like this, should we really expect anything different in the dating world? I am not saying that all the points given by Dan are real. I more than completely agree with all his observations, some with tempting chords of bitterness.
My take on the matter — repent of sin, trust in the Lord, obey Him and find someone that is completely sold on that as well, not just in theory.
David,
Thanks for writing.
I don’t think anyone is 100 percent “sold out” for Jesus. If people were, then there would be a whole lot more Christians who are single by choice and happy about their state. The very act of getting married means you now split your “devotedness” time between the Lord and a spouse. Kids fracture that time even more.
The question then is, What percentage of “sold-out-ness” is acceptable? Is 90 percent? How about 63.7 percent?
It’s a valid question, though, and the point where each one of us goofs, as no human being can determine his or her own level of spiritual commitment, much less that of someone else. And particularly not of “that special someone.” Love IS blind, especially to those realities.
I’m sorry if I am monopolizing the conversation as of late but you are right Dan. I’ve heard that so many times.
Another good one… all those times I’ve walked an isle weeping and wailing …” laying it all down for Jesus ” because marraige is an “idol”….” well ya never know sister Sonya, maybe it’s an idol in your life.” Hah LOL. I’ve bought into that one too. Pllllleeeeaaazzzzzzzzzeee. Our motives are NEVER 100% directed towards God 24-7 !!! Like all christians who are now married didn’t have that problem and marraige wasn’t an ” idol “… for them but it is for me?
anyone else out there heard that one?
Connie I like what you say and have heard that to. However if your single children end up staying single longer than they would like and their purpose and goals lead them to missions, ( of course it better be religious related to get the ” ok” ) or they get a few degrees or a house, there’s the crowd that says you havn’t gotten married because your to selfish.
Then there’s the ” Satan brings the counterfeit before God brings the right one “. Demonizing all the unbelievers and christian ones that didn’t work out.
Hmm it never ends.
I’m trying to trust Him. If he gives me grace and empowers me with His HOLY SPIRIT to do the right thing then he has a plan and purpose for it all. I won’t be put to shame.His name is at stake.
The church’s problem is not that we have failed to value marriage, it’s that we’ve over-valued self. We’ve bought into the cultural emphasis on “self-esteem” which is, ultimately, self-love and self-worship.
Put two people in a marriage each with “high self-esteem” you will inevitably discover unresolvable conflicts of interest.
Put two people together who at least make an effort at valuing others above themselves and their interests will coincide with synergy.
We’ve abandoned self-worth in favor of self-esteem. And our marriages, our churches, and our singles have suffered for it.
Regards,
Rich
BlogRodent
Hans,,
I always find those type of stories intriguing. Why would God violate His word though? Hosea is an example of a type of Christ with us. I know that the Vikings were evangelized to Christianity eventually but that was because they stole and seized christian women after brutalizing them along with their raidng parties.
I think Derek Prince had a simlar story with one of his wives. She was quite a bit older than he and jewish…she converted but it wasn’t an easy marraige.
I have had more unbelievers take an interest in me with all kinds of ‘signs’ indicating there seemed to be something happening on Gods end to get them saved so I could date them like I wanted, but not A ONE ever did or has. One was even married with problems leading to seperation. I had to fight all of them and my flesh every step of the way. ! NONE EVER RECIEVED CHRIST. I don’t buy it. As I said before, after the fact it’s a different story and 1 Cor 7 :14 kicks in but that’s after… and it’s still risky. You stay in the marraige regardless of what happens. Although if a woman respects a man enough to marry him and she’s an unbeliever she usually will follow him in all things more so than a man in the same situation IMO.
Pastor Tommy Nelson refers to unbelieveing man in a marraige to a believer a ” ROGUE MALE ” eeeewwwhhh.
Sonya,
The problem I have is this issue of who;s Christian and who isn’t….that is not for us to decide…..For only God really knows the heart.
I’ve been to churches all across this country (Canada) during ‘walk-abouts’ on our Fathers business and while better than 95% of the people may have been confessing Jesus as their Savior I would say less than 10% actually saw Him as LORD and lived accordingly
Since God knows the end from the beginning He could easily pair up believer with a nonbeliever, knowing when the nonbeliever is going to finally ” get it ” and there by not violate his own word. God is not subject to time, time is part of God’s creation and subject to Him
I personally would much rather see my believing daughter marry a nice kind loving fellow who’s walking his God ordained path ( but may not yet had his epiphany ) than marry a loud mouthed Jesus confessing wolf in sheep’s clothing that practices works of iniquity
Back to the issue of who’s a ” Christian or not ” My previous mentioned friend happens to have the gift of seeing into the Spirit realm and often sees where individuals go or end up when they pass on. I have also been allowed a degree of discernment in that particular area, It makes funerals very interesting sometimes, and you would be very surprised at who gets ” in “……and who doesn’t.
It behooves us to be very cautious about who we ” condemn ” because they happen not to be ” one of us ”
The problem with a lot of unbelievers is not that they are ‘not saved’
but that they just don’t know that they are !!! It was a done deal 2000 years ago……..
We are directed by Jesus to preach the KINGDOM……not salvation…….
Hans,
I find it amazing that your friend claims to know who has been judged by Christ to eternal life, and to eternal death at their funeral umm.
Paul
That’s really quite mild compared to some of the things we have both experienced in our individual walks and our walkabouts together, frankly there is only a handful of fellow believers we dare confide in……the majority of “Christians” just can’t handle it.
I could write a book on the adventures we’ve had in the Lord…but what good would it do anyone, when what they really need is Divine adventures of their own…………besides that was yesterdays’ manna……
Didn’t Jesus tell us that if we have so much faith as a mustard seed we would…………..etc…….., etc……..when do we start taking Him at his word ?…… were we not told to do the very things he did and even greater things……As I was saying to our pastor last Sunday, to biggest challenge we have as a church , or corporate body is to get over our collective unbelief and start to get a handle on how big and absolutely sovereign our God really is……………try walking on water, that will stretch ya
All it takes is obedience and belief
Hans,
The reason I’m amazed at the claim, is that God’s word clearly tells us that Christ will judge believers and unbelievers at the end of this age. No one has been eternally judge yet, how can you claim to have these revelations? I believe this is border line heresy, that is, to make your self equal with Christ, for only He is qualified to judge, and that hasn’t happen yet!
Paul
Sorry, but the long and short it all is that we are at the end of this age and judgment IS HAPPENING, and we have been bearing witness to that for several years now. The period of Grace is coming to an end and the Christian community needs to wake up to the fact, many things and goings on that have been allowed and tolerated up to now just cannot be in the Kingdom age to come ( spend some time in the prophets and you will see )
As a ‘watchman on the wall’ is it not my duty to sound the alarm , as long as I speak up even if no one listens their blood is not on my hands
No one here is claiming equality with Christ or would even consider it, but at the same time did Jesus not COMMAND us to BE LIKE Him. So if we say yes and amen and take Him at His work and am willing to be obedient to the Holy Spirit, will He then not exercise His judgment through us. Was not His given name for his second coming ‘Emanuel’…” GOD With US ” . Dare to meditate on that a bit
To be a witness to His judgment, or to partake in prophetic acts to establish His judgment isn’t anything we have every gone looking for……they just happen….in HIS timing…………. but are always accompanied with external conformation and ‘extraordinary evidence’
If some should find this offensive, well too bad so sad, what can I say …IT IS WHAT IT IS…!!!!!
Hans,
Thank you for your very humble reply. God Bless you brother.
–
Paul
Extrordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
There’s a lot of craziness and outright BS going on with everything that gets lumped under “Discernment”, and little signal amid the noise.
It behooves us to be very cautious about who we ” condemn ” because they happen not to be ” one of us ”
Yet I see you condemning the “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” and I don’t see a rule saying they can’t repent either down the road and “get it” as well. Interesting how that works. Maybe your daughter is meant to marry an ornery troublemaker because she might serve as the instrument to set him back on the path. Can’t deny God’s will if that’s the case, haha!
Ha ha,
Or else pay-back for the grief and heart ache she caused me…. back then………( don’t worry all’s good between us now )…
But it’s so true , God’s will is God’s will and no one gets away with anything
And I don’t wish to condemn the ‘wolves in………’ just identify them for self preservation….( how do you stick them happy faces in there anyhow )
I just wanted to say that this is the scariest blog discussion that I’ve read in quite a long time…
Maybe it’s because I’m belgian and married that I can’t relate at all, but what the ???? are you guys talking about???
I’ve been single for 23 years before I was married btw, and yes I do have single friends (both male and female) and not much has changed when I married. I do believe that friendship is a form of love, and I don’t understand at all why there would be segregation of singles and married persons… That sounds like a rotten system and way of thinking in which I cannot see anything christian at all…
peace
Bram
Most churches split up their congregations into “birds of a feather” groups. Singles with Singles, Married with Married, Kids with Kids, Divorcee’s with Divorcee’s. No doubt shown to be the “best” way to deal with large groups as per some efficiency expert back in the 30′s.
It’s gotten so natural that to break up that dynamic results in complaints, confusion, and discontent. As these are things all churches do their utmost to avoid, the “caste” system is rarely if ever challenged.
Small groups and home churches have made an attempt at breaking up the layered dynamic of church activity, but for the mainstream, ‘Koinonia’ still means “married 50′s with adult children”.
And when the American Evangelical de facto doctrine of “Salvation Through Marriage” (that being single is a sin) gets added to the mix, Singles become one of those Special Need Groups:
Wednesday Night: Alcoholics Ministry.
Thursday Night: Singles Ministry.
Friday Night: Homosexuals Ministry.
As a older single I don’t mind mixing with married couples as long as they are healthy. Brambonious’s comment ” not much has changed when I married ” was nice. I mean I don’t think your supposed to loose your personhood are you ? Strict roles a-la SGM/CBMW is a huge problem.
Something I didn’t mention but as a single woman ever notice how when we show up on the scene all the married women suddenly hold their husbands hands. Or when the on fire for Jesus single guy shows up the husbands in the crowd smoothly reach and wrap their arm around their wives waists.
I have alot more to say about that one but I won’t and it’s not my imagination either.
i.e. “You’re Not Gonna Get MINE.”
Having just stumbled across this post, let me throw my two cents in. I’m 40 and still single. There’s nothing more I would like than to marry a godly women, but despite looking for 20 years I have yet to meet her. I don’t know who Richard Philips is, but I certainly do value marriage. Perhaps he’d like to find me a partner…
Single Man,
I hear you. I really do. Whenever I heard some preacher say, “You need to do ________,” I want to ask that preacher, “Sir, and just what are you doing personally to help me meet that condition?” One of the worst aspects of American Evangelicalism is that we are all set to tell people how they should live as Christians, yet we do nothing to help them achieve the ideal we preach. That’s called hypocrisy where I come from!
Did anyone see a article on Fox news recently about some 30 million men in China are going to have trouble finding wives in the next 20 years because of the one child policy and the trends to abort girl babies. Sad.
What about the christian men there that might be effected. How are they handling that ? To say ” trust God ” sounds weak in some regards…
It could cause a bump in adultry and trafficking/prostitution or looking outside your own culture.
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